These “discussions on religion” that everyone is having that “migrate to islam” are still very much theoretical. Nobody here is asking for permission to publish a treatise that criticizes Islam.
No, OP and everyone involved is asking for the right to criticize without being criticized back. Which absolutely is loaded rhetoric that is typically associated with hate and bigotry. Yes, everyone is allowed to say whatever they want on the internet, but everyone else is allowed to interpet and criticize back however they want.
And in this case, bigots absolutely do criticize Islam, often with sweeping and inaccurate generalizations, in order to be racist without sounding racist. Negative atheism is often a shield for racism. So yes, I’m asking probing questions because it’s really hard to tell sometimes whether criticism of Islam is actually just diguised racism or just an atheist who wants to shit talk on religion and picks one he heard about in the news. And 9 times out of 10, the latter is an arguement from a position of ignorance and lacks any awareness of the complex sociopolitical factors that have shaped middle eastern/balkan nations as well as the religion of Islam.
Um…unless it’s to call your criticism of Islam racist, right? Because that’s literally what OP is arguing for, no assumptions needed, a position you were defending above? Do you even know what you’re arguing with me about?
Again- you can criticize anything about me. Do I have to repeat myself a third time?
That said- since Islam is not a race, I’m not sure how being against it is racist. I have no problem with Middle Eastern, South Asian or Southeast Asian people.
Well, as always, context is king and stating that “Islam is not a race, so therefore criticizing Islam is not racist” ignores the content of the criticism as well as a lot of social context…
As to the content, we don’t really know because OP didn’t tell us. He’s asking for blanket acceptance of the premise that nobody should be allowed to call him racist for criticising Islam - and I’m not willing to give him that.
I firmly believe that anyone who wants the freedom to say whatever they want has to give the freedom of criticism to their audience. That means, if one cares enough about being called racist that one posts a meme calling those critics stupid, maybe one should instead endeavor to ask and learn why their comments seem racist, rather than dismissing it outright.
As to the context, I am a white American dude and though I try to educate myself on all perspectives, I don’t pretend to understand what a Muslim goes through. That said, I do know a few pieces of context that shoot holes in the premise:
Racists absolutely use “muslim” to refer to a generalized swath of “brown people” from the middle-east, balkans, and part of eastern europe. Racists often use “muslims” instead of ethnicity because they don’t actually know the ethnicity they’re attacking and just want a word other than “those brown people that blow themselves up.”
Negative atheism is often used as a straw man for racism. A lot of neo-nazis are actually atheist and will post racist and hateful rhetoric that’s disguised as “atheist criticism against Islam” so that it doesn’t get taken down by mods or so the author can fall back on “its not racist because its a religion.”
The vast majority of criticism against Islam ignores a ton of sociopolitical history and attribute acts and practices to the religion that are actually more regime-based than anything. Islam is America is VERY different from Islam in Iraq or Afghanistan. The religion is used as a tool for oppression in some regions, but that is no different than if any other religion were dominant. That is absolutely a problem for religon, but it not just an Islamic problem. Most muslim women in America that wear hijabs do so because they want to. American mosques are generally a more welcoming, generous, and peaceful place than many Christian churches. The majority of Muslims across the world actually describe themselves as passivists and condemn the acts of fundamentalists. Criticizing the sociopolitical practices of a few regions as a specific feature of Islam simultaneously insults muslims, ignores real historical factors, and ignores the true plight of a wide swath of ethnicities that - tbh, western countries absolutely contributed to. It’s hard to know what exactly that is, a racism is at least one of them.
I have no idea if any of these things apply to the comment that got OP called racist. But if they do, I think getting called racist would be justified. That said, it’s not for me to decide. It’s for the responder to decide. OPs job is either to hand wave it and move on, or to find out why his comment was called racist and reevaluate whether his criticism is aimed at the right people.
Strange how you suddenly went from calling me a racist to pretending you never said that and are only talking about what the OP might or might not have meant.
Strange how you have ignored all context of what you were originally arguing for and are now completely focused on what you perceive as a personal attack as if asking for me to apologize for it.
I never called you racist, bud. If you think I did, maybe you need to evaluate that.
Because that’s literally what OP is arguing for, no assumptions needed, a position you were defending above?
And the fact that you haven’t made any comments about Islam for me to call racist…
The piece you quoted above is me noting that you appear to be agreeing with OP’s assertion that he should be free to criticize Islam without being called racist. Then you claim you are open to all criticism. But if you agree with OP, then that means you’re open to criticism until someone calls your criticism of islam racist…right?
I never called you racist. If I implied anything its just that your claim about being open to criticism breaks down as soon as you’re called racist. And these recent replies seem to confirm that…
These “discussions on religion” that everyone is having that “migrate to islam” are still very much theoretical. Nobody here is asking for permission to publish a treatise that criticizes Islam.
No, OP and everyone involved is asking for the right to criticize without being criticized back. Which absolutely is loaded rhetoric that is typically associated with hate and bigotry. Yes, everyone is allowed to say whatever they want on the internet, but everyone else is allowed to interpet and criticize back however they want.
And in this case, bigots absolutely do criticize Islam, often with sweeping and inaccurate generalizations, in order to be racist without sounding racist. Negative atheism is often a shield for racism. So yes, I’m asking probing questions because it’s really hard to tell sometimes whether criticism of Islam is actually just diguised racism or just an atheist who wants to shit talk on religion and picks one he heard about in the news. And 9 times out of 10, the latter is an arguement from a position of ignorance and lacks any awareness of the complex sociopolitical factors that have shaped middle eastern/balkan nations as well as the religion of Islam.
Anyone is welcome to criticize me at any time for anything about me. Once again, do not make assumptions.
Um…unless it’s to call your criticism of Islam racist, right? Because that’s literally what OP is arguing for, no assumptions needed, a position you were defending above? Do you even know what you’re arguing with me about?
Again- you can criticize anything about me. Do I have to repeat myself a third time?
That said- since Islam is not a race, I’m not sure how being against it is racist. I have no problem with Middle Eastern, South Asian or Southeast Asian people.
Well, as always, context is king and stating that “Islam is not a race, so therefore criticizing Islam is not racist” ignores the content of the criticism as well as a lot of social context…
As to the content, we don’t really know because OP didn’t tell us. He’s asking for blanket acceptance of the premise that nobody should be allowed to call him racist for criticising Islam - and I’m not willing to give him that.
I firmly believe that anyone who wants the freedom to say whatever they want has to give the freedom of criticism to their audience. That means, if one cares enough about being called racist that one posts a meme calling those critics stupid, maybe one should instead endeavor to ask and learn why their comments seem racist, rather than dismissing it outright.
As to the context, I am a white American dude and though I try to educate myself on all perspectives, I don’t pretend to understand what a Muslim goes through. That said, I do know a few pieces of context that shoot holes in the premise:
Racists absolutely use “muslim” to refer to a generalized swath of “brown people” from the middle-east, balkans, and part of eastern europe. Racists often use “muslims” instead of ethnicity because they don’t actually know the ethnicity they’re attacking and just want a word other than “those brown people that blow themselves up.”
Negative atheism is often used as a straw man for racism. A lot of neo-nazis are actually atheist and will post racist and hateful rhetoric that’s disguised as “atheist criticism against Islam” so that it doesn’t get taken down by mods or so the author can fall back on “its not racist because its a religion.”
The vast majority of criticism against Islam ignores a ton of sociopolitical history and attribute acts and practices to the religion that are actually more regime-based than anything. Islam is America is VERY different from Islam in Iraq or Afghanistan. The religion is used as a tool for oppression in some regions, but that is no different than if any other religion were dominant. That is absolutely a problem for religon, but it not just an Islamic problem. Most muslim women in America that wear hijabs do so because they want to. American mosques are generally a more welcoming, generous, and peaceful place than many Christian churches. The majority of Muslims across the world actually describe themselves as passivists and condemn the acts of fundamentalists. Criticizing the sociopolitical practices of a few regions as a specific feature of Islam simultaneously insults muslims, ignores real historical factors, and ignores the true plight of a wide swath of ethnicities that - tbh, western countries absolutely contributed to. It’s hard to know what exactly that is, a racism is at least one of them.
I have no idea if any of these things apply to the comment that got OP called racist. But if they do, I think getting called racist would be justified. That said, it’s not for me to decide. It’s for the responder to decide. OPs job is either to hand wave it and move on, or to find out why his comment was called racist and reevaluate whether his criticism is aimed at the right people.
Strange how you suddenly went from calling me a racist to pretending you never said that and are only talking about what the OP might or might not have meant.
Strange how you have ignored all context of what you were originally arguing for and are now completely focused on what you perceive as a personal attack as if asking for me to apologize for it.
I never called you racist, bud. If you think I did, maybe you need to evaluate that.
Liar.
Me:
You:
Why you’re lying about calling me racist when everyone can see you did it is beyond me.
Lol…really?
You forgot the piece after what you quoted
And the fact that you haven’t made any comments about Islam for me to call racist…
The piece you quoted above is me noting that you appear to be agreeing with OP’s assertion that he should be free to criticize Islam without being called racist. Then you claim you are open to all criticism. But if you agree with OP, then that means you’re open to criticism until someone calls your criticism of islam racist…right?
I never called you racist. If I implied anything its just that your claim about being open to criticism breaks down as soon as you’re called racist. And these recent replies seem to confirm that…