Elkins Park in Montgomery County has several synagogues ... and one large monument to Nazi collaborators. Many people had no idea it existed until recently.
Also, it’s a monument to Ukrainian soldiers who fought for the German endorsed military of Ukraine, serving with the SS. It’s a more complex story than just celebrating Nazi collaboration, because while they were definitely collaborators with the Nazis, they were doing so because they wanted a free and independent Ukraine and wanted to fight the USSR.
So, they’re recognizing these soldiers because they fought for Ukrainian independence, not because the people supporting Ukrainian independence at the time were the Germans.
They also willingly participated in mass murders of civilian population (Jewish and Polish). By “free and independent” the narrative also stuffs this.
So no, whoever put that there knew very well whom they are celebrating. They are just fine with ethnic cleansing for some perceived benefit of their nation.
Which can be shortened to “a memorial to Nazi collaborators”, which is the title.
Except they’re not celebrating Nazi collaboration. They’re recognizing people who fought and died for Ukrainian independence. However tainted that struggle is by the people they fought for and with, and even sometimes the actions of those armies, it’s not them celebrating or recognizing Nazi collaboration. It’s a recognition of the fight for independence.
To me, this is like recognizing Thomas Jefferson’s contributions to the founding of the US. Is someone who makes that recognition endorsing slavery and rape? No, they’re not. Because he’s a more complicated historical figure than just a random slaver and rapist, and it’s hard to tell the story of the foundation of the US without talking about his positive contributions.
I can’t say anything about Graeco-Catholic or just Catholic Ukrainians in the USA, but most Ukrainians from ex-USSR I’ve met celebrate both. They’re just kinda modest with the Nazi part, but they are fine with it, and see it as something naughty all big boys have done, not to boast about, but important. They do have a problem as a nation.
I’m as anti-NAZI as the next guy, but I swear some people have no idea of the nuances of history. I am sure we will start to get a rash of people protesting against Finland soon. We sided with the Soviets because of the convenience of a common enemy, AFTER they had invaded and partitioned and annexed half of Poland right beside the NAZI Germany. The invasion of Poland is what kicked off WWII btw. After the war, the West almost immediately entered into the Cold War with the USSR.
I get it, this is an SS squad, and they contributed to atrocities of NAZI Germany, but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023. It is also a memorial in a church cemetery, and not a statue of Lee in the middle of a town square. A debate is warranted, but I hope some people will learn a little bit more about how history is not black and white with the conversation.
This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I’m aware of some not so bad.
but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023
I can agree that some “forest brothers” in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.
And Zelenskyy agrees with you. Any part they had in torching Polish villages or other atrocities are horrendous.
To be honest, i am a bit conflcted about it all. This wasn’t a statue put up to help bolster segregation 100 years after the fact, and I just wanted to point out that the Ukrainian struggle for independence has been ongoing and real, regardless of how ugly it may look. It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
Wanted to say that nah, that’s not really a working mechanism… But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?
Hope not, but de-nazifing Ukraine is still a prevalent talking point. It is also interesting to me this monument is only becoming an issue now.
War is hell and there are evils always perpetuated on both sides (and i hate both sides arguments! Sorry!). I do believe intentions are important too, especially as in war people usually need to choose between the lesser of evils, which again comes with their own perspective. Being told as a Ukrainian you would only “fight the Bolsheviks” seems like it could have seen as a pretty good deal, especially when combined with the naive thought that supporting the Nazi effort could lead to an independent Ukraine. Again, naive but understandable. When focused on that perspective, and with consideration that they were separated from much of the rest of the SS in being charged with war crimes, I am a little more sympathetic. How many towns and villages did the US burn in WWII and in other wars? Sherman’s March to the Sea? Should we tear down those memorials too? I’d rather not know some of the shit my father did in the Vietnam War on behalf of the US government, but I can’t bring myself to curse his service. He just married an amazing Ukrainian woman a few years ago too…
It’s easy to just jump to conclusions. No, don’t whitewash history, but having a more nuanced perspective I think is important. To be clear, I would be right there with a pitchfork if this was a monument to the Dirlewanger or Kaminski Brigades.
Finland was a democratic country that the Soviet Union invaded, and they cooperated with the later Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.
That seems more akin to the US allying with Stalin against Germany. They were allies of strategic convenience and it didn’t mean that the US approved of Stalin, gulags, etc.
By contrast, this was a group in German- occupied Ukraine who enlisted in the literal SS. History isn’t black and white, but at best this is a very dark shade of grey.
To be clear a lot of the Ukrainians serving in those units were aligned intellectually with the Nazis. It’s a complex story, you know. Not all a good one.
It’s like Americans celebrating the people who founded that country, even the slaveowners. They’re not celebrating that part of the life of the founders, and it certainly colors the perception of people like Thomas Jefferson, speaking noble ideals about freedom while owning and sometimes raping his slaves.
These are people who fought for Ukrainian independence. That’s something to celebrate, even if it’s tainted by who they fought for and with, and at times, what their personal beliefs were surrounding issues like race and religion.
This is a complicated historical topic to Ukrainians. It’s not them celebrating Nazi collaboration.
I’ve met plenty of Ukrainians, it’s literally too common (notably more than for Russians in general, which is already an achievement) for them to ascribe personal traits to genes and thus characterize whole peoples as good or bad (I’m not doing that now, cause I’m talking about society and education). I mean, really, it irritates you.
The issue is that their idea of nationalism is not yet separate from typical Nazi one. Just much more moderate. It shows in various more nuanced conversations on ethnic conflicts, state policies on minorities, centralism, civil rights etc.
I had no idea Ukraine’s history until Moscow invaded them over a year ago. Since then I’ve learned a lot about Ukrainian history, which helps immensely provide better context in an area I otherwise would know very little. Still not an expert, but when you know more of the complexities like you mentioned, it helps to show the bigger picture so things end up making more sense. Thanks again.
Also, it’s a monument to Ukrainian soldiers who fought for the German endorsed military of Ukraine, serving with the SS. It’s a more complex story than just celebrating Nazi collaboration, because while they were definitely collaborators with the Nazis, they were doing so because they wanted a free and independent Ukraine and wanted to fight the USSR.
So, they’re recognizing these soldiers because they fought for Ukrainian independence, not because the people supporting Ukrainian independence at the time were the Germans.
They also willingly participated in mass murders of civilian population (Jewish and Polish). By “free and independent” the narrative also stuffs this.
So no, whoever put that there knew very well whom they are celebrating. They are just fine with ethnic cleansing for some perceived benefit of their nation.
Which can be shortened to “a memorial to Nazi collaborators”, which is the title.
Except they’re not celebrating Nazi collaboration. They’re recognizing people who fought and died for Ukrainian independence. However tainted that struggle is by the people they fought for and with, and even sometimes the actions of those armies, it’s not them celebrating or recognizing Nazi collaboration. It’s a recognition of the fight for independence.
To me, this is like recognizing Thomas Jefferson’s contributions to the founding of the US. Is someone who makes that recognition endorsing slavery and rape? No, they’re not. Because he’s a more complicated historical figure than just a random slaver and rapist, and it’s hard to tell the story of the foundation of the US without talking about his positive contributions.
I can’t say anything about Graeco-Catholic or just Catholic Ukrainians in the USA, but most Ukrainians from ex-USSR I’ve met celebrate both. They’re just kinda modest with the Nazi part, but they are fine with it, and see it as something naughty all big boys have done, not to boast about, but important. They do have a problem as a nation.
I’m as anti-NAZI as the next guy, but I swear some people have no idea of the nuances of history. I am sure we will start to get a rash of people protesting against Finland soon. We sided with the Soviets because of the convenience of a common enemy, AFTER they had invaded and partitioned and annexed half of Poland right beside the NAZI Germany. The invasion of Poland is what kicked off WWII btw. After the war, the West almost immediately entered into the Cold War with the USSR.
I get it, this is an SS squad, and they contributed to atrocities of NAZI Germany, but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023. It is also a memorial in a church cemetery, and not a statue of Lee in the middle of a town square. A debate is warranted, but I hope some people will learn a little bit more about how history is not black and white with the conversation.
This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I’m aware of some not so bad.
I can agree that some “forest brothers” in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.
And Zelenskyy agrees with you. Any part they had in torching Polish villages or other atrocities are horrendous.
To be honest, i am a bit conflcted about it all. This wasn’t a statue put up to help bolster segregation 100 years after the fact, and I just wanted to point out that the Ukrainian struggle for independence has been ongoing and real, regardless of how ugly it may look. It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
Wanted to say that nah, that’s not really a working mechanism… But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?
Hope not, but de-nazifing Ukraine is still a prevalent talking point. It is also interesting to me this monument is only becoming an issue now.
War is hell and there are evils always perpetuated on both sides (and i hate both sides arguments! Sorry!). I do believe intentions are important too, especially as in war people usually need to choose between the lesser of evils, which again comes with their own perspective. Being told as a Ukrainian you would only “fight the Bolsheviks” seems like it could have seen as a pretty good deal, especially when combined with the naive thought that supporting the Nazi effort could lead to an independent Ukraine. Again, naive but understandable. When focused on that perspective, and with consideration that they were separated from much of the rest of the SS in being charged with war crimes, I am a little more sympathetic. How many towns and villages did the US burn in WWII and in other wars? Sherman’s March to the Sea? Should we tear down those memorials too? I’d rather not know some of the shit my father did in the Vietnam War on behalf of the US government, but I can’t bring myself to curse his service. He just married an amazing Ukrainian woman a few years ago too…
It’s easy to just jump to conclusions. No, don’t whitewash history, but having a more nuanced perspective I think is important. To be clear, I would be right there with a pitchfork if this was a monument to the Dirlewanger or Kaminski Brigades.
OK, I agree.
Finland was a democratic country that the Soviet Union invaded, and they cooperated with the later Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.
That seems more akin to the US allying with Stalin against Germany. They were allies of strategic convenience and it didn’t mean that the US approved of Stalin, gulags, etc.
By contrast, this was a group in German- occupied Ukraine who enlisted in the literal SS. History isn’t black and white, but at best this is a very dark shade of grey.
This is going to get lost by a lot of people, but thanks for sharing a very informative, yet quick history of it all.
You’re welcome
To be clear a lot of the Ukrainians serving in those units were aligned intellectually with the Nazis. It’s a complex story, you know. Not all a good one.
Including most of their leaders, so the title of the post is correct. Yeah, surely every group of Nazi collaborators has its history.
It’s like Americans celebrating the people who founded that country, even the slaveowners. They’re not celebrating that part of the life of the founders, and it certainly colors the perception of people like Thomas Jefferson, speaking noble ideals about freedom while owning and sometimes raping his slaves.
These are people who fought for Ukrainian independence. That’s something to celebrate, even if it’s tainted by who they fought for and with, and at times, what their personal beliefs were surrounding issues like race and religion.
This is a complicated historical topic to Ukrainians. It’s not them celebrating Nazi collaboration.
I’ve met plenty of Ukrainians, it’s literally too common (notably more than for Russians in general, which is already an achievement) for them to ascribe personal traits to genes and thus characterize whole peoples as good or bad (I’m not doing that now, cause I’m talking about society and education). I mean, really, it irritates you.
The issue is that their idea of nationalism is not yet separate from typical Nazi one. Just much more moderate. It shows in various more nuanced conversations on ethnic conflicts, state policies on minorities, centralism, civil rights etc.
I had no idea Ukraine’s history until Moscow invaded them over a year ago. Since then I’ve learned a lot about Ukrainian history, which helps immensely provide better context in an area I otherwise would know very little. Still not an expert, but when you know more of the complexities like you mentioned, it helps to show the bigger picture so things end up making more sense. Thanks again.
Naaah, the subtlies of history require thinking