The example you bring speaks much about your non-understanding of what “self diagnosis” means, imo. Seems you think about it as solely applying academic knowledge. From what i read so far, and from own experience, it is first rather an assessment of self perception as questions arise at some point, such as “why do i feel so alien”, or “why am I exhausted seemingly out of nowhere”. Only then, one may discover that there is a “spectrum” of traits of which one shares a more-or-less large number. So this is about self-knowledge and discovering that so many difficulties one has are apparently atypical. No one external can do that for you. And frankly, i wouldn’t trust a neurotypical person who just goes by the clinical book with “diagnosing” autism in someone who for decades trained “adult”.
Btw. I have a degree in Biology, therefore i do understand in principle what the cited abstract is about, and why it may be difficult to accurately map highly repetitive sequences. Of course i have little knowledge in the field of genome sequencing, so the codes therein tell me exactly nothing.
There’s a pretty significant difference between “I don’t trust neurotypicals” and “I don’t trust a specific neurotypical person who diagnoses without extensive hands-on experience in the relevant target population, particularly when the population in question tends to intentionally learn to hide their defining characteristics as they get older.”
I understand that it might be an uncomfortable feeling that if difficult to put into words, but can you elaborate on that?
From my perspective, the differences in experiences make it very difficult for NTs and non-NTs to relate to each others’ mental experiences. In the past, it’s had some very violent and abusive results, and while things have very much improved from then, that gap between experiences still exists and won’t likely ever go away. So I guess my real question here is why should non-NTs trust NTs in this specific area?
I can understand being concerning if you’re just talking about a lack of trust in general, which I do think is the case, too.
I am in fact referring to the general space, not any particular topic. There is a lot of othering and tribalism that I’ve observed. It’s a dangerous precedent for a community to set, regardless of what the community is focused around.
If leaving away the main context of what i typed is concerning you, then yeah …
Or do you want to say that ND people are disentitled from knowing themselves best?
Just to make sure you “concerned” people know what i am talking about (and i speak for this whole community, for they are diverse): I’m talking about people with special sensitivities and special abilities which are very much needed in this kind of “civilisation”. Such people used to fulfill special tasks within their tribes, back in the times when humans were still living in more natural societies. I’m talking of a low percentage of human populations (well, it’s >15% if we count all HSPs) that evolved having certain qualities which turned out to beneficial for those populations – not of people who have some kind of “disorder” that would require clinical attention or what would naturally get selected out in the course of evolution. What constitutes a disorder/disability is IMO the consequence of all the trauma which such people receive by not being properly recognised and given their special tasks within today’s society. No doubt many of them are suffering from it, but it’s also very understandable if they were to say that they wouldn’t want to be clinically handled by the methods said society usually has to offer.
fwiw, here is an essay that speaks about exactly this same thing but it does take some more words and referances to get a message against pathologising across. It’s a whole series of essays.
I agree 100% with it, would just have chosen a somewhat different language.
You have a degree in biology which is exactly what I’m talking about, so you actually do understand things in this field… you have expertise, training and knowledge in biology as opposed to someone who takes an interest in it and googles/TikTok’s all their information about it
I did say you may feel this way and that’s fine but that doesn’t automatically make you autistic you need a diagnosis otherwise what’s the point of doctors and science?
Simply apply this logic to a physical ailment… this is a made up scenario for you, recently I have been having continuously bad headaches… okay there is the self discovery/self diagnosis part done perhaps it’s just a headache, now you need to go to a doctor to actually get a diagnosis pretty sure you can’t self diagnose a brain tumour
Something I could diagnose is cars, I was a Mechanic for 17 years, what do you do if your car doesn’t start, yes you can check the internet and look for possible answers, sometimes they are correct too and you can even get the basic idea of why it caused the problem, the difference between me and finding info on the internet is I know why your starter isn’t working I know the difference between a starter contact and a plunger I also know how the starter works when you turn the key, I know how the magnetic field is working I know how it physically makes contact thus giving you a car that starts, and on top of that I also know what else out of the myriad of other things it could be to check if YouTube is wrong and it’s not the starter
It’s about knowing myself and how i experience myself in relation to others and seeing the difference. It’s not about putting a label on me because of a set of behaviourisms. I don’t even want that “disorder” label. Or be seen as defective somehow.
Perhaps i should just find it funny that others want to deny me the expertise in knowing my self-experience. This community used to be quite nice and understanding until recently.
Except every single person on this planet feels differently than others do we aren’t a mass lump of sameness, being different doesn’t automatically mean you aren’t normal or have a condition, which is the entire purpose of adding labels to things especially in relation to needing it for any type of medical care or assistance of some kind.
If you personally don’t require a diagnosis or label then good for you, you don’t want or need the label of autistic so you don’t need a diagnosis so you are arguing for what exactly? The ability to self diagnose yourself with a label you don’t even want?
I re-read the replies I made and anyone else that replied and I don’t see anyone being not nice, people can disagree with your opinions that doesn’t make them unkind, if you get upset that others disagree with your viewpoint don’t worry about it just move on with your day
Me disagreeing with you didn’t deny you your own self experience, just like you disagreeing with me didn’t deny me anything either
I think I never claimed “I am autistic”. I’m just trying to explain (that’s not an opinion but it’s trying to clarify indisputable things), that i’m obviously my own authority in seeing that my human being here has an above-average share of neurodivergent traits. I make a distinction between ND and autism, btw. If that would be assessed “autistic”, I don’t know (but it would be interesting anyway). The more I’m around in places like this the more relatable stuff pops up, and having it all labeled a disability is devastating. There are traits that rather handicap me within my society (but wouldn’t elsewhere), and there are certainly abilities that have me stand out. Having strangers who know nothing about how i live and about my path in life want me to get labeled a “disorder” is ridiculous at best and offending actually.
The general vibe of this comment section smacks a lot of hexbearian-style brigading, sorry if you’re not part of such a thing.
Having a disorder isn’t offensive at all, you seeing it that way is your own problem, it’s a word, we use words to describe things, if something deviates from the norm then it’s a disorder, no one chooses to have a disorder and having a disorder doesn’t make you any less of a human. You are getting hung up on a word and you personally don’t like the word is all this is.
You saying this place smacks of brigading is also funny, once again just because other people don’t automatically agree with you doesn’t mean there is something going on… it could just mean people disagree with you. Not like the actual instance matters but I’m from the same one as you…
You disagree with me, I don’t think you are “brigading” or trolling I just think you have a different opinion
Late reply but for those who read this later: careful when wanting to know what is “the norm”. It’s social ideals, mostly. (And if it were statistics, where would we draw the line and why … homosexual … disorder?) – Yet luckily, “disorder” means illness, while a non-valueing statistical out of the ordinary would rather be called “divergent”.
Relevant quote from the article:
Whilst [neurodivergent] traits were celebrated in the modernist era, they increasingly began to show up as problems in the Britain during the 1980s – meaning that something had changed in British social normativity. Interestingly, according to critical psychiatrist Sam Timimi and colleagues, this largely happened in light of the rise of the neo-liberal market system, and in particular the services economy. In particular, this economic shift began to alter the notion of the ideal male: rather than being fixed in focus and obsessive, men increasingly now had to forever shift into new roles and to constantly sell one’s “self” in order to fit in. Members of the workforce, in other words, now had to become increasingly agile, flexed, narcissistic, and hyper-social in order to succeed and be valued – and this economic drive became reflected in social normativity at all levels of society.
I’m learning. Do you? This implies it takes time. Glad we can end this breathtaking conversation with a win-win.
I truely have no intention to beat anyone in the domineering game. I’m being snarky, tho.
The example you bring speaks much about your non-understanding of what “self diagnosis” means, imo. Seems you think about it as solely applying academic knowledge. From what i read so far, and from own experience, it is first rather an assessment of self perception as questions arise at some point, such as “why do i feel so alien”, or “why am I exhausted seemingly out of nowhere”. Only then, one may discover that there is a “spectrum” of traits of which one shares a more-or-less large number. So this is about self-knowledge and discovering that so many difficulties one has are apparently atypical. No one external can do that for you. And frankly, i wouldn’t trust a neurotypical person who just goes by the clinical book with “diagnosing” autism in someone who for decades trained “adult”.
Btw. I have a degree in Biology, therefore i do understand in principle what the cited abstract is about, and why it may be difficult to accurately map highly repetitive sequences. Of course i have little knowledge in the field of genome sequencing, so the codes therein tell me exactly nothing.
This is the main thrust of what I’m seeing out of this subreddit. It’s concerning.
There’s a pretty significant difference between “I don’t trust neurotypicals” and “I don’t trust a specific neurotypical person who diagnoses without extensive hands-on experience in the relevant target population, particularly when the population in question tends to intentionally learn to hide their defining characteristics as they get older.”
In what way? That people here aren’t trusting NTs or that NTs are giving reason to not be trusted?
The first one.
I understand that it might be an uncomfortable feeling that if difficult to put into words, but can you elaborate on that?
From my perspective, the differences in experiences make it very difficult for NTs and non-NTs to relate to each others’ mental experiences. In the past, it’s had some very violent and abusive results, and while things have very much improved from then, that gap between experiences still exists and won’t likely ever go away. So I guess my real question here is why should non-NTs trust NTs in this specific area?
I can understand being concerning if you’re just talking about a lack of trust in general, which I do think is the case, too.
I am in fact referring to the general space, not any particular topic. There is a lot of othering and tribalism that I’ve observed. It’s a dangerous precedent for a community to set, regardless of what the community is focused around.
H e x b e a r
If leaving away the main context of what i typed is concerning you, then yeah …
Or do you want to say that ND people are disentitled from knowing themselves best?
Just to make sure you “concerned” people know what i am talking about (and i speak for this whole community, for they are diverse): I’m talking about people with special sensitivities and special abilities which are very much needed in this kind of “civilisation”. Such people used to fulfill special tasks within their tribes, back in the times when humans were still living in more natural societies. I’m talking of a low percentage of human populations (well, it’s >15% if we count all HSPs) that evolved having certain qualities which turned out to beneficial for those populations – not of people who have some kind of “disorder” that would require clinical attention or what would naturally get selected out in the course of evolution. What constitutes a disorder/disability is IMO the consequence of all the trauma which such people receive by not being properly recognised and given their special tasks within today’s society. No doubt many of them are suffering from it, but it’s also very understandable if they were to say that they wouldn’t want to be clinically handled by the methods said society usually has to offer.
Yes, you’re very special and important.
fwiw, here is an essay that speaks about exactly this same thing but it does take some more words and referances to get a message against pathologising across. It’s a whole series of essays.
I agree 100% with it, would just have chosen a somewhat different language.
post in this forum: https://lemmy.world/post/4802441
direct link to the essay: Autistic people – The cultural immune system of human societies
if you like that one, I suggest to continue with this one, as it plays well into the context here (at least that’s what I read next): Autistic people are not for sale
*sigh*
You have a degree in biology which is exactly what I’m talking about, so you actually do understand things in this field… you have expertise, training and knowledge in biology as opposed to someone who takes an interest in it and googles/TikTok’s all their information about it
I did say you may feel this way and that’s fine but that doesn’t automatically make you autistic you need a diagnosis otherwise what’s the point of doctors and science?
Simply apply this logic to a physical ailment… this is a made up scenario for you, recently I have been having continuously bad headaches… okay there is the self discovery/self diagnosis part done perhaps it’s just a headache, now you need to go to a doctor to actually get a diagnosis pretty sure you can’t self diagnose a brain tumour
Something I could diagnose is cars, I was a Mechanic for 17 years, what do you do if your car doesn’t start, yes you can check the internet and look for possible answers, sometimes they are correct too and you can even get the basic idea of why it caused the problem, the difference between me and finding info on the internet is I know why your starter isn’t working I know the difference between a starter contact and a plunger I also know how the starter works when you turn the key, I know how the magnetic field is working I know how it physically makes contact thus giving you a car that starts, and on top of that I also know what else out of the myriad of other things it could be to check if YouTube is wrong and it’s not the starter
It’s about knowing myself and how i experience myself in relation to others and seeing the difference. It’s not about putting a label on me because of a set of behaviourisms. I don’t even want that “disorder” label. Or be seen as defective somehow. Perhaps i should just find it funny that others want to deny me the expertise in knowing my self-experience. This community used to be quite nice and understanding until recently.
Except every single person on this planet feels differently than others do we aren’t a mass lump of sameness, being different doesn’t automatically mean you aren’t normal or have a condition, which is the entire purpose of adding labels to things especially in relation to needing it for any type of medical care or assistance of some kind.
If you personally don’t require a diagnosis or label then good for you, you don’t want or need the label of autistic so you don’t need a diagnosis so you are arguing for what exactly? The ability to self diagnose yourself with a label you don’t even want?
I re-read the replies I made and anyone else that replied and I don’t see anyone being not nice, people can disagree with your opinions that doesn’t make them unkind, if you get upset that others disagree with your viewpoint don’t worry about it just move on with your day
Me disagreeing with you didn’t deny you your own self experience, just like you disagreeing with me didn’t deny me anything either
I think I never claimed “I am autistic”. I’m just trying to explain (that’s not an opinion but it’s trying to clarify indisputable things), that i’m obviously my own authority in seeing that my human being here has an above-average share of neurodivergent traits. I make a distinction between ND and autism, btw. If that would be assessed “autistic”, I don’t know (but it would be interesting anyway). The more I’m around in places like this the more relatable stuff pops up, and having it all labeled a disability is devastating. There are traits that rather handicap me within my society (but wouldn’t elsewhere), and there are certainly abilities that have me stand out. Having strangers who know nothing about how i live and about my path in life want me to get labeled a “disorder” is ridiculous at best and offending actually.
The general vibe of this comment section smacks a lot of hexbearian-style brigading, sorry if you’re not part of such a thing.
Having a disorder isn’t offensive at all, you seeing it that way is your own problem, it’s a word, we use words to describe things, if something deviates from the norm then it’s a disorder, no one chooses to have a disorder and having a disorder doesn’t make you any less of a human. You are getting hung up on a word and you personally don’t like the word is all this is.
You saying this place smacks of brigading is also funny, once again just because other people don’t automatically agree with you doesn’t mean there is something going on… it could just mean people disagree with you. Not like the actual instance matters but I’m from the same one as you…
You disagree with me, I don’t think you are “brigading” or trolling I just think you have a different opinion
Late reply but for those who read this later: careful when wanting to know what is “the norm”. It’s social ideals, mostly. (And if it were statistics, where would we draw the line and why … homosexual … disorder?) – Yet luckily, “disorder” means illness, while a non-valueing statistical out of the ordinary would rather be called “divergent”.
Relevant quote from the article:
So you took all this time to find an article that you liked and this is what proves that it shouldn’t be called a disorder? It’s some guys blog…
Find something in a peer reviewed journal and then maybe you will have something of substance
I’m learning. Do you? This implies it takes time. Glad we can end this breathtaking conversation with a win-win.
I truely have no intention to beat anyone in the domineering game. I’m being snarky, tho.