I don’t think Walden is really the best choice if you’re going to look at human history… I mean, it’s written by a white guy who was one of the 2% or so of people who had a post secondary education who was only able to build his house because he was squatting on his buddy’s land… Were someone willing to grant you the land, you could buy the same materials he used for about the same price, if not cheaper. (As long as you were willing to spend however many years building and convincing others to help you build as he did.) And besides that, it’s in a somewhat unique point in history/space where the United States had plenty of land and was rapidly expanding, that’s fairly unusual in human history. (At that point, it was far more common to live in large shared housing rampant with rats and disease. You might look at The Condition of the Working Class in England, which noted that almost half of all children died before age 5.)
I’ll put it very simply, would you say that your life is better or worse than the average person in the feudal era? Or the Roman times? Or Greek? Or Egyptian? Or during the industrial revolution?
The main beneficiaries of UBI are working people, especially if the program is designed as a remedy to wealth inequality, and has a funding mechanism that focuses on large concentrations of wealth rather than clawing back job income.
Yeah, I’d much rather an extremely progressive tax system wherein the wealthy are taxed significantly and we can use the revenue to support the working poor (subsidizing housing, expenses etc.) None of this is a reason why someone should be able to declare they don’t want to work but society is still indebted to them and owes them housing and food.
Were someone willing to grant you the land, you could buy the same materials he used for about the same price, if not cheaper.
That’s not the same as being able to build something you can legally live in. And I’m not referring specifically to his circumstances, the book goes into what costs were for people in general (dramatically lower for housing, clothes and food were more of a bottleneck, but clearly a more flexible one). Even considering a greater availability of habitable land, it doesn’t account for the difference. It should be clear from things like the ratio of wages to productivity and measures of wealth inequality that especially in recent history the bulk of people are getting squeezed, and their agency over their lives and how they are spent has been in decline for a long time.
None of this is a reason why …
Maybe not, but it’s a reason why appealing to a comparison with the struggling working poor makes no sense. Those people would also be lifted up, and to a greater extent; the most elegant aspect of UBI is that by granting workers the ability to say no, it gives them a negotiating power that would be more flexible, effective, and has fewer negative externalities than specific employment regulations might. Any jobs that are unsafe, have an abusive work environment, etc. will need to find some balance of improved conditions and higher pay, being no longer being able to prey on desperate people forced to sell themselves. The OP framing of this as being about consent is absolutely correct, and I think there exists no other hypothetical measures that could possibly solve these issues as cleanly, because all issues of poverty are inherently about a lack of agency and safety, and restraining employers does not itself grant a worker agency. Giving them money not tied to employment does.
I’ll happily answer the rest but you keep focusing on the account of one of the most privileged people of the time (again, only 2% of the population had the luxury of a post secondary education.)
I keep asking a simple question and getting no answer, but I’ll try again:
Simply put, would you have rather been an average person from say, 0 BC to 1800? If so, where/when?
I don’t think his level of privilege has much bearing on the approximate accuracy of the numbers he cites, which are what is relevant to my argument. I don’t think he was making that stuff up.
would you have rather been an average person from say, 0 BC to 1800? If so, where/when?
No, my own life has gone well enough, I got what I wanted. What I’m advocating for isn’t anything I need for myself. But when I talk or read the accounts of people who feel financially trapped, particularly young people, there isn’t any realistic advice to offer. What worked out for me isn’t reproducible and isn’t available to them. I don’t have a deep enough knowledge of history to talk about specific times and places. But for someone who resents the life that has been chosen for them and doesn’t want it, sure, why wouldn’t they be better off rolling the dice with historical circumstances? The specific malaise affecting them now was not there, and maybe whatever hardships would be faced instead would be more tolerable to them. But there’s no reason that should be the standard anyway. We are so rich in resources compared to any other time, there is no justification for anyone to be trapped like that. Everyone can be free to do what they want, and so they should.
I think I have said all I have to say on this. It bothers me that you seem to think it’s acceptable to let people who find their work intolerable to fall into despair and kill themselves, but you’ve made some valid arguments and it’s refreshing to discuss this with someone who does not seem to be a property rights absolutist, so thanks for sharing your perspective.
Edit: One last thing I want to mention, beyond making a point about whether the progress of civilization is a strict improvement, Debt: The First 5000 Years is also a comprehensive critique of the moral logic of debt. If it seems strange to reject that logic, I again recommend that book.
I don’t think his level of privilege has much bearing on the approximate accuracy of the numbers he cites
I do. If you look at the materials, much of it is re-used etc. As one of the most privileged people in the country, he could read and do math, thus go talk to merchants, find materials to re-use etc. Just the same as if you and I were temporarily homeless, our experience would be much different (I can go to any store and ask to use a washroom, a privilege most homeless do not have.) Also, really, if you went to old demolition sites, you could scavenge much of the materials like he did to build a floorless cabin only marginally bigger than a prison cell…
why wouldn’t they be better off rolling the dice with historical circumstances?
I think this is what I’m finding so frustrating. Because for the vast majority of human existence, that’s a TERRIBLE gamble. Most of the time you’d be working the land from dawn until dusk with little to no leisure, barely getting enough calories to survive. Or maybe you are literally chained to an oar in a Roman galley, chained so as to stop you from killing yourself because your body belonged to whomever owned you. That’s if you were lucky enough to survive childhood. And God help you if you reincarnate as a woman…
Hell, even getting born somewhere else nowadays would be a terrible gamble, to the point where it’s borderline offensively self centered. Like I said, people die every day trying to get out of their miserable circumstances and would howl at our complaints of being a “wage slave.” If you have friends from India, ask them about the people competing to work in sweat shops. My friend from Columbia described the mental jolt when he realized people walked around here with headphones because at home, you needed to keep your ears and eyes open so that you could duck into a shop before getting robbed (and shot if your money didn’t match your bearing/clothes, as a lesson to others to have money to pay gangsters.) Globally, we are the richest folks around and our complaints seem like the height of privilege and ignorance. (Watch any documentary about China, or take a look at how folks in their richest cities live: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4585230/Shocking-pictures-reveal-tiny-Hong-Kong-coffin-homes.html or about any of the countries where your stuff is made. Hell, watch Winter on Fire and watch what the Ukrainians went through just for a chance at a Western life, it’ll break your heart.) Even the saddest among us in the first world is living a life of luxury compared to most.
It bothers me that you seem to think it’s acceptable to let people who find their work intolerable to fall into despair and kill themselves
That’s not what I think. I support any and all social benefits that help people better their circumstances and there are a lot of such programs that we should expand, create etc. I think all forms of education, skill improvement, childcare, healthcare etc should be provided to all and ideally, for free. But what I absolutely will not support is supporting someone who decides that the concept of working is beneath them and that instead, society somehow owes them a life of leisure. That’s nonsense. The world is tough for most people and has been for almost its entirety, sorry about that. And if you are unable to support yourself, then we should be helping you to the utmost. But for someone who just doesn’t want to work? Nope, sorry. You are not owed a thing. I’m happy to help those who help themselves but just deciding that you shouldn’t have to work at all? In a world where people literally die for a chance at any of the jobs we complain about, that’s among the most privileged, selfish perspectives I can imagine and I hold it beneath contempt.
I don’t know how to help the younger ones of this generation but I do know that the first step is approaching the situation with open and honest eyes, rather than a privileged “woe is me” attitude. Frankly, I think it’s counter productive and when we make nonsensical claims like it would be easier to be anywhere else in history, it undermines the actual and very real struggles that our generation faces.
Sorry, I can’t seem to edit my response (blocking a community has interesting consequences.) But, the appropriate analogy came to mind a moment ago. Claiming we have it harder now than ever before (or others in the world) sort of strikes me like when republicans complain about a war on men. They have some legitimate points about male suicide, expectations etc. But cloaking it in absurd language diminishes any respect or validity that someone might casually give those complaints.
I don’t think Walden is really the best choice if you’re going to look at human history… I mean, it’s written by a white guy who was one of the 2% or so of people who had a post secondary education who was only able to build his house because he was squatting on his buddy’s land… Were someone willing to grant you the land, you could buy the same materials he used for about the same price, if not cheaper. (As long as you were willing to spend however many years building and convincing others to help you build as he did.) And besides that, it’s in a somewhat unique point in history/space where the United States had plenty of land and was rapidly expanding, that’s fairly unusual in human history. (At that point, it was far more common to live in large shared housing rampant with rats and disease. You might look at The Condition of the Working Class in England, which noted that almost half of all children died before age 5.)
I’ll put it very simply, would you say that your life is better or worse than the average person in the feudal era? Or the Roman times? Or Greek? Or Egyptian? Or during the industrial revolution?
Yeah, I’d much rather an extremely progressive tax system wherein the wealthy are taxed significantly and we can use the revenue to support the working poor (subsidizing housing, expenses etc.) None of this is a reason why someone should be able to declare they don’t want to work but society is still indebted to them and owes them housing and food.
That’s not the same as being able to build something you can legally live in. And I’m not referring specifically to his circumstances, the book goes into what costs were for people in general (dramatically lower for housing, clothes and food were more of a bottleneck, but clearly a more flexible one). Even considering a greater availability of habitable land, it doesn’t account for the difference. It should be clear from things like the ratio of wages to productivity and measures of wealth inequality that especially in recent history the bulk of people are getting squeezed, and their agency over their lives and how they are spent has been in decline for a long time.
Maybe not, but it’s a reason why appealing to a comparison with the struggling working poor makes no sense. Those people would also be lifted up, and to a greater extent; the most elegant aspect of UBI is that by granting workers the ability to say no, it gives them a negotiating power that would be more flexible, effective, and has fewer negative externalities than specific employment regulations might. Any jobs that are unsafe, have an abusive work environment, etc. will need to find some balance of improved conditions and higher pay, being no longer being able to prey on desperate people forced to sell themselves. The OP framing of this as being about consent is absolutely correct, and I think there exists no other hypothetical measures that could possibly solve these issues as cleanly, because all issues of poverty are inherently about a lack of agency and safety, and restraining employers does not itself grant a worker agency. Giving them money not tied to employment does.
I’ll happily answer the rest but you keep focusing on the account of one of the most privileged people of the time (again, only 2% of the population had the luxury of a post secondary education.)
I keep asking a simple question and getting no answer, but I’ll try again:
Simply put, would you have rather been an average person from say, 0 BC to 1800? If so, where/when?
I don’t think his level of privilege has much bearing on the approximate accuracy of the numbers he cites, which are what is relevant to my argument. I don’t think he was making that stuff up.
No, my own life has gone well enough, I got what I wanted. What I’m advocating for isn’t anything I need for myself. But when I talk or read the accounts of people who feel financially trapped, particularly young people, there isn’t any realistic advice to offer. What worked out for me isn’t reproducible and isn’t available to them. I don’t have a deep enough knowledge of history to talk about specific times and places. But for someone who resents the life that has been chosen for them and doesn’t want it, sure, why wouldn’t they be better off rolling the dice with historical circumstances? The specific malaise affecting them now was not there, and maybe whatever hardships would be faced instead would be more tolerable to them. But there’s no reason that should be the standard anyway. We are so rich in resources compared to any other time, there is no justification for anyone to be trapped like that. Everyone can be free to do what they want, and so they should.
I think I have said all I have to say on this. It bothers me that you seem to think it’s acceptable to let people who find their work intolerable to fall into despair and kill themselves, but you’ve made some valid arguments and it’s refreshing to discuss this with someone who does not seem to be a property rights absolutist, so thanks for sharing your perspective.
Edit: One last thing I want to mention, beyond making a point about whether the progress of civilization is a strict improvement, Debt: The First 5000 Years is also a comprehensive critique of the moral logic of debt. If it seems strange to reject that logic, I again recommend that book.
I do. If you look at the materials, much of it is re-used etc. As one of the most privileged people in the country, he could read and do math, thus go talk to merchants, find materials to re-use etc. Just the same as if you and I were temporarily homeless, our experience would be much different (I can go to any store and ask to use a washroom, a privilege most homeless do not have.) Also, really, if you went to old demolition sites, you could scavenge much of the materials like he did to build a floorless cabin only marginally bigger than a prison cell…
You might take a look at how his contemporaries were living at the time: https://allthatsinteresting.com/jacob-riis-photographs-how-the-other-half-lives#20
I think this is what I’m finding so frustrating. Because for the vast majority of human existence, that’s a TERRIBLE gamble. Most of the time you’d be working the land from dawn until dusk with little to no leisure, barely getting enough calories to survive. Or maybe you are literally chained to an oar in a Roman galley, chained so as to stop you from killing yourself because your body belonged to whomever owned you. That’s if you were lucky enough to survive childhood. And God help you if you reincarnate as a woman…
Hell, even getting born somewhere else nowadays would be a terrible gamble, to the point where it’s borderline offensively self centered. Like I said, people die every day trying to get out of their miserable circumstances and would howl at our complaints of being a “wage slave.” If you have friends from India, ask them about the people competing to work in sweat shops. My friend from Columbia described the mental jolt when he realized people walked around here with headphones because at home, you needed to keep your ears and eyes open so that you could duck into a shop before getting robbed (and shot if your money didn’t match your bearing/clothes, as a lesson to others to have money to pay gangsters.) Globally, we are the richest folks around and our complaints seem like the height of privilege and ignorance. (Watch any documentary about China, or take a look at how folks in their richest cities live: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4585230/Shocking-pictures-reveal-tiny-Hong-Kong-coffin-homes.html or about any of the countries where your stuff is made. Hell, watch Winter on Fire and watch what the Ukrainians went through just for a chance at a Western life, it’ll break your heart.) Even the saddest among us in the first world is living a life of luxury compared to most.
That’s not what I think. I support any and all social benefits that help people better their circumstances and there are a lot of such programs that we should expand, create etc. I think all forms of education, skill improvement, childcare, healthcare etc should be provided to all and ideally, for free. But what I absolutely will not support is supporting someone who decides that the concept of working is beneath them and that instead, society somehow owes them a life of leisure. That’s nonsense. The world is tough for most people and has been for almost its entirety, sorry about that. And if you are unable to support yourself, then we should be helping you to the utmost. But for someone who just doesn’t want to work? Nope, sorry. You are not owed a thing. I’m happy to help those who help themselves but just deciding that you shouldn’t have to work at all? In a world where people literally die for a chance at any of the jobs we complain about, that’s among the most privileged, selfish perspectives I can imagine and I hold it beneath contempt.
I don’t know how to help the younger ones of this generation but I do know that the first step is approaching the situation with open and honest eyes, rather than a privileged “woe is me” attitude. Frankly, I think it’s counter productive and when we make nonsensical claims like it would be easier to be anywhere else in history, it undermines the actual and very real struggles that our generation faces.
It’s been an interesting chat, take care!
Sorry, I can’t seem to edit my response (blocking a community has interesting consequences.) But, the appropriate analogy came to mind a moment ago. Claiming we have it harder now than ever before (or others in the world) sort of strikes me like when republicans complain about a war on men. They have some legitimate points about male suicide, expectations etc. But cloaking it in absurd language diminishes any respect or validity that someone might casually give those complaints.