All these “but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!”, its coming from their parents.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women’s Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women’s oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She’s based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it’s role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that’s how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won’t deny it. And I don’t think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn’t inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like… kids wear funky things to school. I don’t know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn’t appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don’t like is to control those that they abuse.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
some girls are forced and I won’t deny it
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls… why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
What would I comment on when there is little to no relation between your example and the issue at hand?
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it?
i think, at this point, I will just re quote things I’ve already said since it seems you’re just not reading?
" I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy."
"Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. "
why are muslims not fighting for that?
You’re saying this like they don’t? There are support systems in western countries too for Muslim women by Muslim women. People can be mad about multiple things at once. And, you will find that many Arab and Muslim women do fight as hard as possible for women in countries with Muslim governments that try to oppress them. Just like they fight the French government who tries to control them in the opposite direction. People don’t like authoritarianism in either direction. I don’t know what to tell you.
but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
Yes. Yes they are.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans.
France is not Afghanistan. Girls are not being forced by religion in France the way they are in the middle east. You are not saving the little girls in Afghanistan by bullying the ones in France. Again, there’s a lot of feminist writing on how these clothes have a very different meaning in the west compared to the middle east. These women often wear these clothes for different reasons.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women’s Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women’s oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She’s based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it’s role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that’s how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won’t deny it. And I don’t think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn’t inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like… kids wear funky things to school. I don’t know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn’t appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don’t like is to control those that they abuse.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls… why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
What would I comment on when there is little to no relation between your example and the issue at hand?
i think, at this point, I will just re quote things I’ve already said since it seems you’re just not reading?
You’re saying this like they don’t? There are support systems in western countries too for Muslim women by Muslim women. People can be mad about multiple things at once. And, you will find that many Arab and Muslim women do fight as hard as possible for women in countries with Muslim governments that try to oppress them. Just like they fight the French government who tries to control them in the opposite direction. People don’t like authoritarianism in either direction. I don’t know what to tell you.
Yes. Yes they are.
France is not Afghanistan. Girls are not being forced by religion in France the way they are in the middle east. You are not saving the little girls in Afghanistan by bullying the ones in France. Again, there’s a lot of feminist writing on how these clothes have a very different meaning in the west compared to the middle east. These women often wear these clothes for different reasons.
If you actually care, please read this: https://www.law.georgetown.edu/immigration-law-journal/blog/the-war-on-muslim-womens-bodies-a-critique-of-western-feminism/