Being an asshole was never forbidden. I can call a cis man a she all I want. Just because it isn’t illegal doesn’t mean that there are no consequences. Like people will just disassociate from me and my boss might fire me for bullying.
What do you mean by “consequences”? You want to punish people for believing a man can’t be a woman, even if they don’t go around harassing transgender and calling them names and fucking with their lives?
Intentionally misgendering someone is a dick move and generally people don’t want to hang around dicks. So first consequence is you’ll have other dicks for friends. Except, they’re dicks, so probably not gonna be very good friends each other.
I also hope you are self employed cuz intentionally misgendering people in the workplace is not a good look either. Better hope no one in earshot has a trans friend or family member.
No one’s saying you can’t be Your Best Inner Bigoted Self. We’re just saying the rest of us think it’s ugly and weak minded.
Alright, so you’re OK with leaving alone people who use pronouns to refer to biological sex, you don’t want to be their friend or whatever but you leave them alone, don’t harass them, don’t try to get them fired and if they get a job somewhere that doesn’t care then fine, leave them alone?
I never said people should be punished for thinking that. If people aren’t harassing or bullying people they aren’t being assholes.
Also consequences doesn’t just mean punishment. If someone is being an asshole by constantly misgendering a trans person on purpose and people don’t want to hang out with them anymore because of that behavior that’s a consequence but not a punishment.
So you’re OK with that? Not personally associating with people that use pronouns to refer to biological sex, but let them be themselves and do their thing and associate with who they want?
Well that’s good, I 100% agree with you. But judging by the votes I’m getting for asking this question, I don’t think most people that support the transgender movement do.
Why would they think I’m an asshole? I have not misgendered someone, I have not even stated my opinion on that. I’m just asking, if that’s the compromise would you all be OK with it.
Yeah, but it’s not without contention. Some people believe it should be illegal to use pronouns in reference to someone’s biological sex. I’m just asking people if they’re OK with it, if they like that, to distinguish from people who do that and people who harass and berate transgender people. When someone says “they just want to be left alone” I’m trying to get whether they view that distinction as valid or not.
Edit: This is from a US perspective despite the article.
Should a teacher be required to call a child by their preferred pronoun? Of course; the child has no choice in the matter of attending school, and forcing a child to endure constant humiliation at the hands of their steward is an insane thing to require.
Should it be illegal to misgender someone on the street? No, we have the freedom to speak our mind in this country. If one puts themselves out there as a bigot though, they need to be prepared for the social repercussions of that speech.
Should it be illegal to misgender a coworker? Consider a situation where you start a new job. Your coworker starts calling you “cuck” over and over again. You tell him that you’re not a cuck, but he says that you look like a cuck, so that’s what he’s going to call you. You go to your boss, and tell them that your coworker is being disrespectful, but he says that he’s not going to get between the two of you about personal identity issues. There is a case for a lawsuit for creating a hostile work environment, and it’s a civil matter at that point.
The most concerning question is: why is it so important to you to be an asshole to other people?
The interesting thing about pronouns is that the only pronoun used to directly address someone is not gendered, it’s “you”. So it is not actually possible to directly misgender someone.
The words “he” and “she” aren’t slurs. Comparison to the word “cuck” don’t make any sense. Should a job require someone to use preferred pronouns? Well I go back to what I was discussing about free association, if they want to sure, if they don’t that’s OK too, but going after a workplace without such a requirement takes things a bit farther than just wanting to be left alone.
And as far as teachers, I actually don’t think kids should be forced to go to school, so that would really be a different issue. If they’re old enough to determine their gender they’re certainly old enough to educate themselves or determine if they even want an education.
You know that there have always been effeminate men and masculine women, right? They might not even be trans, they just look close to the other gender. You’d still be an asshole for calling them the wrong gender, why would trans people be any different?
This requires some obsession on the part of the person who would have to try to learn everyone’s gender and sex just so they can purposefully identify and misgender this trans person.
That’s only how it feels, as you only notice it at all on people where it is “obvious”. And even then, people get it wrong, cis people have been harassed by transphobes often enough. Just be nice.
Does it matter? They just want to be left alone, they’re being left alone. The opinions of people they don’t even want to interact with have no bearing on their lives, so long as they’re genuinely being left alone. No laws against being transgender, no discrimination against transgender people in hiring or whatever, no harassment, but some people are going to use pronouns based on sex instead of gender because they personally don’t buy it. Is that OK?
I get what you mean, but the analogy does not work so well. Names are inherently individual. We got used to know hundreds of them. So when you’re meeting a new person, you expect to learn a “new” name just for that person. Likewise, most people don’t make a fuzz if you get their name wrong the first couple of times. It’s something which has to be asked, and learned.
On the other hand, gender is mostly inferred, and we used to use only two of them. So when you’re meeting a new person, you’re expected to already know the correct gender. Likewise, most people react insulted if you misgender them, even if only once. It’s something you’re supposed to just know.
My point is, many people have a strong social training to correctly guess the gender of a person before talking to them. To suppress this automatism and replace it with an active ask-individually-approach can be stressful, although we have a similar scheme with names already.
Its irrelevant for this topic of discussion. Pronouns are a linguistic element with already clearly defined rules, proper nouns are chosen and have always been chosen. To answer you I’d say calling someone by some name other than theirs to be disparaging is not OK, referring to someone using a pronoun corresponding to their biological sex is perfectly OK.
So if someone decided you were trans and started calling you by the wrong pronouns, you’d be ok with that?
Like if they personally just don’t believe your presented gender and want to publically harrass you about it, are you allowed to put up a fuss in this scenario of yours? Or is that OK?
I don’t particularly care. It’s not really harassing me, when they address me they’d say “you”. They’d be doing it in conversation with someone else. I wouldn’t hang out with someone that did this, but it wouldn’t make me angry or anything, it’s literally not my problem at all, I know who and what I am.
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Being an asshole was never forbidden. I can call a cis man a she all I want. Just because it isn’t illegal doesn’t mean that there are no consequences. Like people will just disassociate from me and my boss might fire me for bullying.
What do you mean by “consequences”? You want to punish people for believing a man can’t be a woman, even if they don’t go around harassing transgender and calling them names and fucking with their lives?
Intentionally misgendering someone is a dick move and generally people don’t want to hang around dicks. So first consequence is you’ll have other dicks for friends. Except, they’re dicks, so probably not gonna be very good friends each other.
I also hope you are self employed cuz intentionally misgendering people in the workplace is not a good look either. Better hope no one in earshot has a trans friend or family member.
No one’s saying you can’t be Your Best Inner Bigoted Self. We’re just saying the rest of us think it’s ugly and weak minded.
Alright, so you’re OK with leaving alone people who use pronouns to refer to biological sex, you don’t want to be their friend or whatever but you leave them alone, don’t harass them, don’t try to get them fired and if they get a job somewhere that doesn’t care then fine, leave them alone?
If this hypothetical person can’t see the forest for trees after all that, yeah sure
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I never said people should be punished for thinking that. If people aren’t harassing or bullying people they aren’t being assholes.
Also consequences doesn’t just mean punishment. If someone is being an asshole by constantly misgendering a trans person on purpose and people don’t want to hang out with them anymore because of that behavior that’s a consequence but not a punishment.
So you’re OK with that? Not personally associating with people that use pronouns to refer to biological sex, but let them be themselves and do their thing and associate with who they want?
Yes I’m ok with that, like I said being an asshole is not illegal.
Well that’s good, I 100% agree with you. But judging by the votes I’m getting for asking this question, I don’t think most people that support the transgender movement do.
I don’t think people who downvote you think being an asshole should be illegal. They just think you’re an asshole.
Why would they think I’m an asshole? I have not misgendered someone, I have not even stated my opinion on that. I’m just asking, if that’s the compromise would you all be OK with it.
You do realize that this is the situation that already exists?
Yeah, but it’s not without contention. Some people believe it should be illegal to use pronouns in reference to someone’s biological sex. I’m just asking people if they’re OK with it, if they like that, to distinguish from people who do that and people who harass and berate transgender people. When someone says “they just want to be left alone” I’m trying to get whether they view that distinction as valid or not.
You’re conflating a number of issues.
Edit: This is from a US perspective despite the article.
Should a teacher be required to call a child by their preferred pronoun? Of course; the child has no choice in the matter of attending school, and forcing a child to endure constant humiliation at the hands of their steward is an insane thing to require.
Should it be illegal to misgender someone on the street? No, we have the freedom to speak our mind in this country. If one puts themselves out there as a bigot though, they need to be prepared for the social repercussions of that speech.
Should it be illegal to misgender a coworker? Consider a situation where you start a new job. Your coworker starts calling you “cuck” over and over again. You tell him that you’re not a cuck, but he says that you look like a cuck, so that’s what he’s going to call you. You go to your boss, and tell them that your coworker is being disrespectful, but he says that he’s not going to get between the two of you about personal identity issues. There is a case for a lawsuit for creating a hostile work environment, and it’s a civil matter at that point.
The most concerning question is: why is it so important to you to be an asshole to other people?
I’m not am asshole to other people.
The interesting thing about pronouns is that the only pronoun used to directly address someone is not gendered, it’s “you”. So it is not actually possible to directly misgender someone.
The words “he” and “she” aren’t slurs. Comparison to the word “cuck” don’t make any sense. Should a job require someone to use preferred pronouns? Well I go back to what I was discussing about free association, if they want to sure, if they don’t that’s OK too, but going after a workplace without such a requirement takes things a bit farther than just wanting to be left alone.
And as far as teachers, I actually don’t think kids should be forced to go to school, so that would really be a different issue. If they’re old enough to determine their gender they’re certainly old enough to educate themselves or determine if they even want an education.
The only people making it illegal to use certain pronouns are conservatives. You’re making the worst kind of straw man argument.
You know that there have always been effeminate men and masculine women, right? They might not even be trans, they just look close to the other gender. You’d still be an asshole for calling them the wrong gender, why would trans people be any different?
This requires some obsession on the part of the person who would have to try to learn everyone’s gender and sex just so they can purposefully identify and misgender this trans person.
You may be surprised to know that there are a lot of those people.
It’s usually quite obvious what someone’s sex and gender are.
That’s only how it feels, as you only notice it at all on people where it is “obvious”. And even then, people get it wrong, cis people have been harassed by transphobes often enough. Just be nice.
I would bet you a significant amount of money that in a line up of humans I could get more than 95% accurate. I think even a young child could.
Yeah I mean you can get 95% by just saying everyone is cis, that’s just not an schievement
You’ll still be an asshole and will rightly be treated like one.
How would you refer to them? Trans men as “she” and trans women as “he”? Or just avoid using any pronouns?
Does it matter? They just want to be left alone, they’re being left alone. The opinions of people they don’t even want to interact with have no bearing on their lives, so long as they’re genuinely being left alone. No laws against being transgender, no discrimination against transgender people in hiring or whatever, no harassment, but some people are going to use pronouns based on sex instead of gender because they personally don’t buy it. Is that OK?
If you change your name, and I believe people shouldn’t be able to change their name, is it ok for me to only use your old name?
I get what you mean, but the analogy does not work so well. Names are inherently individual. We got used to know hundreds of them. So when you’re meeting a new person, you expect to learn a “new” name just for that person. Likewise, most people don’t make a fuzz if you get their name wrong the first couple of times. It’s something which has to be asked, and learned.
On the other hand, gender is mostly inferred, and we used to use only two of them. So when you’re meeting a new person, you’re expected to already know the correct gender. Likewise, most people react insulted if you misgender them, even if only once. It’s something you’re supposed to just know.
My point is, many people have a strong social training to correctly guess the gender of a person before talking to them. To suppress this automatism and replace it with an active ask-individually-approach can be stressful, although we have a similar scheme with names already.
How do you know my old name? You aso me my name and I tell you.
Someone choosing their own name is already common enough, and is not a question of distortion of language. It’s not the same as pronouns.
Answer the question, is it ok or not?
Its irrelevant for this topic of discussion. Pronouns are a linguistic element with already clearly defined rules, proper nouns are chosen and have always been chosen. To answer you I’d say calling someone by some name other than theirs to be disparaging is not OK, referring to someone using a pronoun corresponding to their biological sex is perfectly OK.
So if someone decided you were trans and started calling you by the wrong pronouns, you’d be ok with that?
Like if they personally just don’t believe your presented gender and want to publically harrass you about it, are you allowed to put up a fuss in this scenario of yours? Or is that OK?
I don’t particularly care. It’s not really harassing me, when they address me they’d say “you”. They’d be doing it in conversation with someone else. I wouldn’t hang out with someone that did this, but it wouldn’t make me angry or anything, it’s literally not my problem at all, I know who and what I am.
I think a lot of people would be happy to settle into this camp. Happy to oblige but allowed to keep their opinion without being villainized.
Wait, what do you mean “happy to oblige”? Nobody abliges in my scenario. Everyone just leaves each other alone.
Yes, that’s what I mean. The stated request was that trans people just want to be left alone. Most people would be happy to do that. I agree with you.
From now on your pronoun is “moron”.
As used in a sentence: You see this guy? Moron tried to be smart but it didn’t work.