I think it’s important to keep in mind that Hamas is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
People here don’t seem to understand this. All they think is “Israel bad”. Also, instead of cheering for Hamas when they drag dead civilians through town, they could, you know, not do that.
Starving innocents is bad, yes. Abuse breeds abuse, it’s no wonder the Palestinian reaction considering everything the Israeli government has done to them.
Not to mention the Israeli military is the reason Hamas is where it is, funding it in the 80s and 90s because they’re easier to hate than the moderate coalition.
You can understand the contributing factors that lead to repugnant acts without claiming them to be justifiable, which is what a lot of people are doing here.
I’m sure there are people with gross opinions like that but it serves conversation better to not make blanket statements about people who disagree with you.
Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources? This isn’t some new development. Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?
It’s amazing how easy it is to get average people to disregard their own humanity and blithely condemn thousands to cruel brutal deaths because of the actions of a group that was literally funded by the military they’re resisting when they first got started.
Don’t give me that psycho shit, the Israeli government has been perpetuating this shit show for decades. The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions just like they’re responsible for the deaths of journalists like Shireen Abu Akleh and for the conditions Palestinians live within.
Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage. That’s not something to be justified.
Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources?
Because the can and it’s in their interesst. Again, a blockade is a very basic military tactic.
Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?
Hamas enjoy wide support in the population though.
For the Palestines that actually don’t support Hamas, it sure sucks. But guess who’s the first party that surpresses any Palestines that support peace negotiation or any normalisation of the conflict? Right … Hamas, because they are militant hardliners and don’t actually give a shit about peace or the Palestinian people.
The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions
Fuck off. The blood is on the people that pulled the trigger and one one else. Anything else just makes you a supporter of terrorism.
Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage
Actually, Israel goes to great lenght to install defensive meassures to protect their citizens.
On the ther side, Hamas will go to great lenght to protect their weapons from Israeli attacks by hiding them amongst their citizens, preferably in school.
If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians. You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished. Hard to afford an iron dome when your enemy won’t even let your people get adequate food and water.
Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t say that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands. Of course they do, they enabled the attack.
Once you’ve established that our world is more than just a string of isolated incidents it’s easy to see how the Israeli military partially caused this much like how the American government brought about conditions that lead to 9/11. Your aggressive denial is just you getting trapped in emotional thinking.
People like you are why Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists. Thus a never ending story of dead innocents while military contractors take in billions.
If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians
Or they would use those funds and equipment to do what they’ve layed out in their charter, which is to destory Israel and “push the jews into the sea”.
You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished
No I’m not. The better question is, why is that? According to lemmy, they have like the noblest cause in the world, so why isn’t the international community flocking to aid them?
Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t disagree that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands.
Sure, there is more blame to go around. But we should have learned from WW2 that “just following orders” isn’t an excuse that absolves people from responsibilty.
I guess it is a bit muddier when you account for religious childhood indoctrination.
All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists.
Because it’s not that relevant to the situation anymore. It’s very unlikley that a nation will ever be established in the way that Israel was. And yes, it was a very terrible chain of events. Hopefully lessons have been learned to avoid such partitions in the future.
But for this conflict, it’s done. Unless you have a time machine, Israel is there now and it’s powerful enough to not be going away anytime soon.
There is also no chance of a Palestinian military victory. So the only prospects for them is either making some kind of peace (yes, the conditions will be shit, but the killing will stop) … or keep fighting an unwinnable war, which will just put you into an even shittier position down the line.
Talking about the geopolitical context can be very interessting, but it doesn’t help much when coming up with a solution. But we can blame the British if you want?
Mindless assumption that assumes the worst, not surprised but speculation doesn’t strengthen an argument.
I also haven’t absolved any terrorist of their disgusting actions. And beyond religious indoctrination you should consider general political indoctrination too.
Final point, context is always important if you want a solution that involves justice. If you start disregarding context you can make literally anything okay with the right framing. If you disregard the context of Hamas attacking, Israel’s current policies would seem even more extreme. If you ignore the murders committed by the Israeli military s as king other actions, the recent Hamas attack seems even more drastic than it already is and portrays it as more random of an occurrence than it actually is.
Arguing against needing context is arguing for ignorance.
Because not every Lemmy instance federates with every other, people on different instances can see slightly different selections of comments. I have read many threads and I see hardly any support for Hamas, but I hear it’s more prevalent on some of the instances I don’t see content from.
I don’t give a shit about Hamas, I give a shit about Palestine. From the river to the sea, bay-bee. Israel has no claim on that land. The citizens can stay, but the country must be dissolved.
Good luck with that, it’s clearly not a viable outcome. Generations of Israelis have come and gone and they now legitimately consider it their home as well, and they support their government. It’s the only thing keeping them from being slaughtered like Hamas openly calls for. As for Hamas, it is the government Gaza elected, they represent that part of Palestine. Let’s not pretend they’re separate and unrelated entities.
The citizens wouldn’t be able to stay, though. Hamas wants an Islamic state and sees Jews as direct enemies of Allah who should not be allowed to exist at all. Like in, they don’t just want Israel gone, they want all Jews gone.
Oppressive systems passively inflict violence on the oppressed. Artificial lack of access to basic necessities like food, shelter, healthcare hurts or even kills people. Getting over policed gets people hurt or killed.
The absence of war isn’t the same thing as the absence of conflict. The conflict is built into the structure of a hierarchical society. It’s just only felt by some. A war brings the conflict to the surface to make those who the system supports feel the pain of those who it does not.
The government could give in and create a more just society for everyone and the conflict would be resolved. The oppressed giving in only benefits those in power. They go back to passively experiencing systemic violence.
You can male the same argument the other way around. Why don’t we stick to what’s already international war, and that attacking civilians is forbidden? This seems a form of collective punishment as well.
I must have missed the lesson in school about how the way to resist oppression is to rape and murder hundreds of innocent civilians at a festival.
It’s not as if there were a lack of military targets around. If Hamas had strictly focused on attacking military bases and infrastructure, I might be able to be sympathetic. At the least, that would fall under the umbrella of meaningful resistance. Instead, their sole aim was to murder as many Jews as possible. Kidnapping civilians and threatening to murder them on a livestream is absolutely indefensible.
The only explanation I have found, for Hamas attacking those civilians, is, that they are cowards. They are scared. If they attack military personnel, the soldiers actually fight back… raping and killing civilians is just so much more convenient for Hamas.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Israel is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, giving right of return, de-militarizing, opening all borders, creating a single government that fairly represents all in the area, giving reparations, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Zionist entity is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
If you recall, Gaza was occupied until 2005, when the IDF withdrew as a sign of goodwill towards peace. Gazans then elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israeli cities.
If you’re supporting a side that’s threatening to livestream the murder of hostages, you need to take a very long look in the mirror.
If you’re supporting the side indiscriminately starving millions, you need to take a very long look in the mirror. This fight is villains vs villains, and civilians are taking the brunt of the brutality from both sides.
My point was that Israel cannot offload to Hamas all responsibility for the suffering to civilians caused by blockading Gaza. It’s Israel’s choice to react like this. I understand Israel’s reasons for taking this extreme action, but Israel should take responsibility for it, not pretend it was forced into this and it has to keep starving civilians until Hamas capitulates. And of course I’m not condoning the atrocities committed by Hamas.
Easy for you to talk about what’s righteous or not when it’s not your land being apartheided
They unfortunately don’t have the luxury of a fair war.
Israel made this bed now they’re going to lay in it whether any of us like it or not and I think it’s atrocious but Israel needs to bear some blame for this.
I’ll say this one more time. Nothing about fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder civilians. There are plenty of military bases all around Gaza if Hamas wanted to focus on military targets.
If you think that fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder innocent people, you deserve you oppression.
I will not say that Hamas did anything ethical, it was morally deplorable. But at the same time, unless we tackle the underlying issues of Israeli apartheid, we are begging for people in Palestine to view members of Hamas as freedom fighters as opposed to savages. Israel is creating this problem.
The quickest way to disassemble Hamas is to give the Palestinian people justice and humanity.
I am not morally justifying their actions, I’m saying that Israel is responsible for creating the environments in which terrorists can rise. We learned nothing from our wars in the Middle East.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Hamas is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
People here don’t seem to understand this. All they think is “Israel bad”. Also, instead of cheering for Hamas when they drag dead civilians through town, they could, you know, not do that.
Starving innocents is bad, yes. Abuse breeds abuse, it’s no wonder the Palestinian reaction considering everything the Israeli government has done to them.
Not to mention the Israeli military is the reason Hamas is where it is, funding it in the 80s and 90s because they’re easier to hate than the moderate coalition.
You can understand the contributing factors that lead to repugnant acts without claiming them to be justifiable, which is what a lot of people are doing here.
I’m sure there are people with gross opinions like that but it serves conversation better to not make blanket statements about people who disagree with you.
How is it Israel’s responsibility to supply their enemies in the first place? Cutting supply lines is like the most basic military tactic there is.
If they don’t want to starve, they can ask Iran to send some food instead of the next rocket shipmment.
Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources? This isn’t some new development. Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?
It’s amazing how easy it is to get average people to disregard their own humanity and blithely condemn thousands to cruel brutal deaths because of the actions of a group that was literally funded by the military they’re resisting when they first got started.
Don’t give me that psycho shit, the Israeli government has been perpetuating this shit show for decades. The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions just like they’re responsible for the deaths of journalists like Shireen Abu Akleh and for the conditions Palestinians live within.
Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage. That’s not something to be justified.
Because the can and it’s in their interesst. Again, a blockade is a very basic military tactic.
Hamas enjoy wide support in the population though.
For the Palestines that actually don’t support Hamas, it sure sucks. But guess who’s the first party that surpresses any Palestines that support peace negotiation or any normalisation of the conflict? Right … Hamas, because they are militant hardliners and don’t actually give a shit about peace or the Palestinian people.
Fuck off. The blood is on the people that pulled the trigger and one one else. Anything else just makes you a supporter of terrorism.
Actually, Israel goes to great lenght to install defensive meassures to protect their citizens.
On the ther side, Hamas will go to great lenght to protect their weapons from Israeli attacks by hiding them amongst their citizens, preferably in school.
If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians. You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished. Hard to afford an iron dome when your enemy won’t even let your people get adequate food and water.
Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t say that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands. Of course they do, they enabled the attack.
Once you’ve established that our world is more than just a string of isolated incidents it’s easy to see how the Israeli military partially caused this much like how the American government brought about conditions that lead to 9/11. Your aggressive denial is just you getting trapped in emotional thinking.
People like you are why Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists. Thus a never ending story of dead innocents while military contractors take in billions.
Or they would use those funds and equipment to do what they’ve layed out in their charter, which is to destory Israel and “push the jews into the sea”.
No I’m not. The better question is, why is that? According to lemmy, they have like the noblest cause in the world, so why isn’t the international community flocking to aid them?
Sure, there is more blame to go around. But we should have learned from WW2 that “just following orders” isn’t an excuse that absolves people from responsibilty.
I guess it is a bit muddier when you account for religious childhood indoctrination.
Because it’s not that relevant to the situation anymore. It’s very unlikley that a nation will ever be established in the way that Israel was. And yes, it was a very terrible chain of events. Hopefully lessons have been learned to avoid such partitions in the future.
But for this conflict, it’s done. Unless you have a time machine, Israel is there now and it’s powerful enough to not be going away anytime soon.
There is also no chance of a Palestinian military victory. So the only prospects for them is either making some kind of peace (yes, the conditions will be shit, but the killing will stop) … or keep fighting an unwinnable war, which will just put you into an even shittier position down the line.
Talking about the geopolitical context can be very interessting, but it doesn’t help much when coming up with a solution. But we can blame the British if you want?
Mindless assumption that assumes the worst, not surprised but speculation doesn’t strengthen an argument.
I also haven’t absolved any terrorist of their disgusting actions. And beyond religious indoctrination you should consider general political indoctrination too.
Final point, context is always important if you want a solution that involves justice. If you start disregarding context you can make literally anything okay with the right framing. If you disregard the context of Hamas attacking, Israel’s current policies would seem even more extreme. If you ignore the murders committed by the Israeli military s as king other actions, the recent Hamas attack seems even more drastic than it already is and portrays it as more random of an occurrence than it actually is.
Arguing against needing context is arguing for ignorance.
Who is doing that?
Bro half this thread has a hard on for Hamas, his terrorist organization and for antisemitism, if you can’t see it I wonder why
Because not every Lemmy instance federates with every other, people on different instances can see slightly different selections of comments. I have read many threads and I see hardly any support for Hamas, but I hear it’s more prevalent on some of the instances I don’t see content from.
I’m on their instance (lemmy.world) and can see all the support for Hamas clear as day.
I don’t give a shit about Hamas, I give a shit about Palestine. From the river to the sea, bay-bee. Israel has no claim on that land. The citizens can stay, but the country must be dissolved.
Good luck with that, it’s clearly not a viable outcome. Generations of Israelis have come and gone and they now legitimately consider it their home as well, and they support their government. It’s the only thing keeping them from being slaughtered like Hamas openly calls for. As for Hamas, it is the government Gaza elected, they represent that part of Palestine. Let’s not pretend they’re separate and unrelated entities.
The citizens wouldn’t be able to stay, though. Hamas wants an Islamic state and sees Jews as direct enemies of Allah who should not be allowed to exist at all. Like in, they don’t just want Israel gone, they want all Jews gone.
What do you mean?
Submitting to an oppressive government is not peace.
By definition peace is when war and violence stop, the kinds of governments involved are irrelevant.
Oppressive systems passively inflict violence on the oppressed. Artificial lack of access to basic necessities like food, shelter, healthcare hurts or even kills people. Getting over policed gets people hurt or killed.
The absence of war isn’t the same thing as the absence of conflict. The conflict is built into the structure of a hierarchical society. It’s just only felt by some. A war brings the conflict to the surface to make those who the system supports feel the pain of those who it does not.
The government could give in and create a more just society for everyone and the conflict would be resolved. The oppressed giving in only benefits those in power. They go back to passively experiencing systemic violence.
You can male the same argument the other way around. Why don’t we stick to what’s already international war, and that attacking civilians is forbidden? This seems a form of collective punishment as well.
And allow the genocide of Palestine to continue without opposition? Why should they simply lay down and die? Because fighting back is distasteful?
Then so be it and fight without complaint.
I must have missed the lesson in school about how the way to resist oppression is to rape and murder hundreds of innocent civilians at a festival.
It’s not as if there were a lack of military targets around. If Hamas had strictly focused on attacking military bases and infrastructure, I might be able to be sympathetic. At the least, that would fall under the umbrella of meaningful resistance. Instead, their sole aim was to murder as many Jews as possible. Kidnapping civilians and threatening to murder them on a livestream is absolutely indefensible.
The only explanation I have found, for Hamas attacking those civilians, is, that they are cowards. They are scared. If they attack military personnel, the soldiers actually fight back… raping and killing civilians is just so much more convenient for Hamas.
They expressly condone genocide against the Jews.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
If you recall, Gaza was occupied until 2005, when the IDF withdrew as a sign of goodwill towards peace. Gazans then elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israeli cities.
If you’re supporting a side that’s threatening to livestream the murder of hostages, you need to take a very long look in the mirror.
If you’re supporting the side indiscriminately starving millions, you need to take a very long look in the mirror. This fight is villains vs villains, and civilians are taking the brunt of the brutality from both sides.
Yes
Mask off, so my job is done here.
I’ve never been trying to hide behind a mask, just like the Zionist entity has never tried to hide that it primarily targets civilians.
“Look what you’re making us do.”
Ah, I forgot, Hamas simply had to rape a bunch of women and butcher 200 people at a festival. That’s just what righteous resistance looks like.
Or perhaps childish quips aren’t actually useful in a productive conversation, who knows
My point was that Israel cannot offload to Hamas all responsibility for the suffering to civilians caused by blockading Gaza. It’s Israel’s choice to react like this. I understand Israel’s reasons for taking this extreme action, but Israel should take responsibility for it, not pretend it was forced into this and it has to keep starving civilians until Hamas capitulates. And of course I’m not condoning the atrocities committed by Hamas.
Easy for you to talk about what’s righteous or not when it’s not your land being apartheided
They unfortunately don’t have the luxury of a fair war.
Israel made this bed now they’re going to lay in it whether any of us like it or not and I think it’s atrocious but Israel needs to bear some blame for this.
I’ll say this one more time. Nothing about fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder civilians. There are plenty of military bases all around Gaza if Hamas wanted to focus on military targets.
If you think that fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder innocent people, you deserve you oppression.
I will not say that Hamas did anything ethical, it was morally deplorable. But at the same time, unless we tackle the underlying issues of Israeli apartheid, we are begging for people in Palestine to view members of Hamas as freedom fighters as opposed to savages. Israel is creating this problem.
The quickest way to disassemble Hamas is to give the Palestinian people justice and humanity.
Not raping and murdering civilians is not white privilege you morally bankrupt walnut.
I am not morally justifying their actions, I’m saying that Israel is responsible for creating the environments in which terrorists can rise. We learned nothing from our wars in the Middle East.