No one is free from criticism. Harmful ideas should be condemned, when they are demonstrably harmful. But theist beliefs are such a vast range and diversity of ideas, some harmful, some useful, some healing, some vivifying, and still others having served as potent drivers of movements for justice; that to lump all theist religious belief into one category and attack the whole of it, only demonstrates your ignorance of theology, and is in fact bigotry.
By saying that religious and superstitious beliefs should be disrespected, or otherwise belittling, or stigmatizing religion and supernatural beliefs as a whole, you have already established the first level on the “Pyramid of Hate”, as well as the first of the “10 Stages of Genocide.”
If your religion is atheism, that’s perfectly valid. If someone is doing something harmful with a religious belief as justification, that specific belief should be challenged. But if you’re crossing the line into bigotry, you’re as bad as the very people you’re condemning.
Antitheism is a form of supremacy in and of itself.
"In other words, it is quite clear from the writings of the “four horsemen” that “new atheism” has little to do with atheism or any serious intellectual examination of the belief in God and everything to do with hatred and power.
Indeed, “new atheism” is the ideological foregrounding of liberal imperialism whose fanatical secularism extends the racist logic of white supremacy. It purports to be areligious, but it is not. It is, in fact, the twin brother of the rabid Christian conservatism which currently feeds the Trump administration’s destructive policies at home and abroad – minus all the biblical references."
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/5/4/the-resurrection-of-new-atheism/
My point was that many people feel that religion as a whole is harmful, and they should be free to criticize religion as a whole and not be restricted to only debating specific cherry picked aspects that OP here seems to think are not “off limits” to disagree with
Some people also feel certain races as a whole are harmful. There isn’t an obligation to tolerate that any more than tolerating antitheistic positions.
It’s just not convincing to claim people believing something religious is inherently harmful. It is possible to believe religious things without causing harm to others. So, why should people accept intolerance of religious views in general?
You’re comparing someone talking about some ideas or ways of thinking being harmful versus someone talking about how certain people are harmful based on innate characteristic. It’s not a reasonable comparison.
Okay, my point is modular enough that this is not a real problem:
Some people also feel --atheist ways of thinking-- are harmful. There isn’t an obligation to tolerate that any more than tolerating antitheistic positions.
Replace the text between the double – with whatever you like I guess. This is just a particular case of the paradox of tolerance (or very similar to it). Quibbling because you dislike my particular example doesn’t change the actual point.
Wth are you talking about. The argument is on whether or not it is ok (aka, we should tolerate) to belittle / argue against religion as a whole. You’re taking the position that it is not ok to do so. The supporting argument you gave is that it is functionally equivalent to racism. I explained that it was not functionally equivalent to racism.
Now you have no supporting argument but you tell me it doesn’t matter because your position hasn’t changed.
Also, I keep seing this paradox of tolerance bullshit on the fediverse. People need to understand: you must tolerate people, but you doesn’t have to tolerate their ideas or their actions. It’s not that complicated.
This whole not tolerating people who are intolerant is just another way of being intolerant. Pick any person in the world and I’ll find a reason to claim that they’re intolerant. At the end of the day, it’s just an excuse to otherize people who aren’t on your team.
Since you seem new to the term, here’s some info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=Karl%20Popper%20described%20it%20as,engage%20in%20%22rational%20argument%22.
It’s a legitimate argument even if you don’t agree.
The op QuaffPotions is arguing against intolerance against theists.
MrJamesGumb (the person I responded to) is arguing against the OPs point with: “It seems like you’re saying no one is allowed to criticize religion as a whole, but only certain aspects of certain religions that you agree are “harmful”. The problem is that there are a growing number of people who find ALL religions to be harmful, and those people have a right to make their feelings known…”
My point is that I can make this same exact argument using many other examples of people claiming they are justified in doing XYZ things solely because they believe some arbitrary thing is harmful. Claiming you believe something is harmful doesn’t really justify you to do whatever you want in all cases. Many Christians actively believe being a homosexual is harmful, but most sane people object to them actively spreading hate propaganda against homosexuals.
Just because somebody fears something is “harmful” doesn’t mean everybody has to accept them choosing to be intolerant as their response to that fear.
Just because you chose not to respond to my supporting argument that addressed your previous point doesn’t mean I have no supporting argument.
The whole takeaway from Popper on the paradox of tolerance is that we don’t have to tolerate intolerance. What I’m saying is that being intolerant against theists doesn’t have to be tolerated either.
I’m pretty explicitly saying we don’t have to otherize people who are religious solely for being religious. If somebody is actually harming other people in the name of religious beliefs, then by all means, stop them. But that doesn’t make anybody inherently deserving of harm or mistreatment solely because they are religious. Just because an individual believes all religions are harmful doesn’t really justify them to be a bigot. Criticism is fine, but outright hatred and disgust like what the op (QuaffPotions) is talking about isn’t justified.
Based. This exactly.
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So it’s disingenuous to say that it should be ok to criticize all religion? Every religion is off limits unless there is a specific “harmful” point to debate which some as yet unnamed party gives us permission to be critical about?
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OP stated that anyone who feels religion in general is a bad thing that hurts society is a “bigot” and I disagreed with them, and then you all started shitting all over me about it. How else am I supposed to interpret that?
According to this guy I’m apparently worse than Hitler. I’m supposed to be super accepting of someone that starts their argument by calling me a bigot who is on the verge of starting a genocide?
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You’re not worse than Hitler. But if there was a national movement to exterminate all theist religions by force, and they seemed to be succeeding, maybe you should reflect on whether or not you’d fall in line as a loyal citizen.
Got it. So you’re saying people should not be allowed to criticize religion in general just in case unless it’s regarding a pre approved “harmful” topic… So who decides which aspects are deemed “harmful” and ok to debate? Is it a government agency? A tribal of elders? Who should I consult about what I’m allowed to be critical of?
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