You have yet to debunk a single thing, all you’ve done is regurgitate propaganda.
Do you think that because Capitalists only care about profit, that they let people starve?
I think capitalists would let literally everyone starve if they didn’t need the labor. But the system is self correcting, if food is in demand, then people see the opportunity and meet the demand. Because under capitalism people will always fill a void with their own desire to make a profit. You still have not given a single reason why workers councils would raise to that level of agility.
Regulated Capitalism is right wing, no matter how light or heavy, because Capitalism is right wing.
Right wing is political, capitalism is economic. Again, I repeat, you don’t get to define words, society as a whole has a mutual understanding of what words mean. Right-wing is an inherently political determination, not an economic system. Within that system people who are right-wing tend to be anti-communist, and to that extent you’re right I am anti-“pure communism” at least. Because I think it’s impossible. But that doesn’t make me right wing, it’s like saying Greg wears a blue hat and Greg is a jerk therefor all people in blue hats are jerks, it’s an enormous logic leap.
Communism is global.
It’s global but decentralized, you still need to address the glaring flaws of a power vacuum. At no point in human history has a power vacuum not been filled with power. You’re asking me to trust on faith that suddenly humans would stop being human.
Citation needed. Capitalist economies plan all the time, lmao.
You seem to have entirely missed my point.
Worker Cooperatives are Socialism, not Capitalism, even if they compete with Capitalist entities.
Worker Cooperatives are not Capitalist, even if they can exist in market economies.
Yes that was my point, I’m glad to see you are finally listening. You were claiming that they can’t exist at the same time, while in fact the most certainly can and do.
As for your points against worker councils, why would they let themselves starve?
They wouldn’t, they would let everyone else starve. Not everyone is a farmer.
Do you misunderstand what a Worker council even is? Do you think it’s just a group of people at the very top of a system, like an oligarchy? Why do you think the word worker is the descriptive factor?
You’re projecting your view of me, on to me. That sounds like a you problem, leave me out of it.
Capitalism is right wing, Socialism is left wing.
Capitalism isn’t a political system, it’s an economic one. Socialism is nearly always left wing, but they are not the same thing. It largely depends on if you believe x system serves the needs of x beliefs. For right-wing belief capitalism more often fits the underlying beliefs because they believe in social hierarchy. For left-wing, who believe in social equality and progressive improvement, socialism is desirable. But there are aspects of capitalism, like more adaptable self actualization, that can support social equality and progressive improvement (left-wing). There are a million ways to describe left wing and right wing, but they are not defined by the economic system we are currently under.
You have a wide political spectrum from left to right and you were basically saying that everything to the right of absolute realized communism is right-wing, and that’s just obnoxiously wrong. It’s as silly as saying everything to the left of absolute unregulated capitalism is left wing. You are arguing from a point of perspective relative to your own position. When you are talking only to other communists, then calling everyone else right-wing might be contextually understood, but when you are communicating to anyone else, you define words how they are most understood. Right-wing and left-wing are broad political spectrums untethered from the economic systems they most often lean towards.
How is there a power vacuum? How do people amass tanks in global Communism to fight the rest of the globe?
Decentralization IS the power vacuum. Humans are more quickly adaptable to emergencies when who is in charge is clear. When you respond to the scene of an accident you designate someone as the person in charge exactly because of this. We have the knowledge of how advanced weaponry is made, that doesn’t disappear in communism. Human’s will still human. Systems are fluid and ever changing. Global communism therefor will never exist, there will always be pockets of variation, and that variation will leave room. But even in a pure system without variation someone would still come along and realize that with very little effort they can take over a decentralized system. In a stateless society, there is less individual incentive to care that someone tried to take over 5000 miles away, so something small can grow fairly unimpeded. I don’t believe that worker councils will have the organizational capacity to raise an army like a narcissistic fascist with true believers behind them could, fear and ignorance are powerful motivators and communism doesn’t cause these human behaviors to disappear. It’s the same problem I had with Marx himself, from what I recall he ignores some aspects of human behavior.
The co-ops do not exist within the same space as Capitalism. You cannot have 100% Capitalism and 100% Socialism, they are mutually exclusive.
There’s never been 100% of any system in society, things operate on a continuum. If you replace socialism with end state communism then I might agree with you, end state communism and capitalism are mutually exclusive, but not socialism. Co-ops absolutely operate in both spaces simultaneously. They still handle money in a market economy, sell goods and services according to supply and demand.
Please, for the love of everything, read Marx.
I have, the man was an incredibly intelligent philosopher, but that doesn’t mean he had a complete understanding of human behavior. It has been a long time since I last read Das Kapital and the communist manifesto, I may have read other things he wrote, it’s been 18-20 years probably, so I do think I could use a refresher, but these were roughly the same things that gave me pause when I read them. The fact that you read them and just took everything as gospel doesn’t prove you right, it should give you pause that you are so easily influenced to one absolute ideology indistinguishable from ones fervent following of a religion. You keep desperately asking me to read them because you are unable to articulate why you think you’re right, that should give you pause. Really we should both re-read them, and you should re-read them with a far more critical lens.
The fundamental problem I have with communists true believers is your capacity to see how the system could work without the capacity to see its flaws. From a purely systems analysis, if all actors in the system had the same motivations and beliefs, I think there is a possibility it could work despite it’s flaws, but humans are not monolithic and I just don’t see it ever working prior to post work / post scarcity. Star Trek esque. All systems have their flaws, that’s why I believe, that at least in the present, blended systems have a stronger likelihood of positive outcomes. If we can manage to take the best parts of systems and blend them we have a better chance of arriving at a more equitable society than believing in an untested system that’s never going to happen.
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You have yet to debunk a single thing, all you’ve done is regurgitate propaganda.
I think capitalists would let literally everyone starve if they didn’t need the labor. But the system is self correcting, if food is in demand, then people see the opportunity and meet the demand. Because under capitalism people will always fill a void with their own desire to make a profit. You still have not given a single reason why workers councils would raise to that level of agility.
Right wing is political, capitalism is economic. Again, I repeat, you don’t get to define words, society as a whole has a mutual understanding of what words mean. Right-wing is an inherently political determination, not an economic system. Within that system people who are right-wing tend to be anti-communist, and to that extent you’re right I am anti-“pure communism” at least. Because I think it’s impossible. But that doesn’t make me right wing, it’s like saying Greg wears a blue hat and Greg is a jerk therefor all people in blue hats are jerks, it’s an enormous logic leap.
It’s global but decentralized, you still need to address the glaring flaws of a power vacuum. At no point in human history has a power vacuum not been filled with power. You’re asking me to trust on faith that suddenly humans would stop being human.
You seem to have entirely missed my point.
Yes that was my point, I’m glad to see you are finally listening. You were claiming that they can’t exist at the same time, while in fact the most certainly can and do.
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They wouldn’t, they would let everyone else starve. Not everyone is a farmer.
You’re projecting your view of me, on to me. That sounds like a you problem, leave me out of it.
Capitalism isn’t a political system, it’s an economic one. Socialism is nearly always left wing, but they are not the same thing. It largely depends on if you believe x system serves the needs of x beliefs. For right-wing belief capitalism more often fits the underlying beliefs because they believe in social hierarchy. For left-wing, who believe in social equality and progressive improvement, socialism is desirable. But there are aspects of capitalism, like more adaptable self actualization, that can support social equality and progressive improvement (left-wing). There are a million ways to describe left wing and right wing, but they are not defined by the economic system we are currently under.
You have a wide political spectrum from left to right and you were basically saying that everything to the right of absolute realized communism is right-wing, and that’s just obnoxiously wrong. It’s as silly as saying everything to the left of absolute unregulated capitalism is left wing. You are arguing from a point of perspective relative to your own position. When you are talking only to other communists, then calling everyone else right-wing might be contextually understood, but when you are communicating to anyone else, you define words how they are most understood. Right-wing and left-wing are broad political spectrums untethered from the economic systems they most often lean towards.
Decentralization IS the power vacuum. Humans are more quickly adaptable to emergencies when who is in charge is clear. When you respond to the scene of an accident you designate someone as the person in charge exactly because of this. We have the knowledge of how advanced weaponry is made, that doesn’t disappear in communism. Human’s will still human. Systems are fluid and ever changing. Global communism therefor will never exist, there will always be pockets of variation, and that variation will leave room. But even in a pure system without variation someone would still come along and realize that with very little effort they can take over a decentralized system. In a stateless society, there is less individual incentive to care that someone tried to take over 5000 miles away, so something small can grow fairly unimpeded. I don’t believe that worker councils will have the organizational capacity to raise an army like a narcissistic fascist with true believers behind them could, fear and ignorance are powerful motivators and communism doesn’t cause these human behaviors to disappear. It’s the same problem I had with Marx himself, from what I recall he ignores some aspects of human behavior.
There’s never been 100% of any system in society, things operate on a continuum. If you replace socialism with end state communism then I might agree with you, end state communism and capitalism are mutually exclusive, but not socialism. Co-ops absolutely operate in both spaces simultaneously. They still handle money in a market economy, sell goods and services according to supply and demand.
I have, the man was an incredibly intelligent philosopher, but that doesn’t mean he had a complete understanding of human behavior. It has been a long time since I last read Das Kapital and the communist manifesto, I may have read other things he wrote, it’s been 18-20 years probably, so I do think I could use a refresher, but these were roughly the same things that gave me pause when I read them. The fact that you read them and just took everything as gospel doesn’t prove you right, it should give you pause that you are so easily influenced to one absolute ideology indistinguishable from ones fervent following of a religion. You keep desperately asking me to read them because you are unable to articulate why you think you’re right, that should give you pause. Really we should both re-read them, and you should re-read them with a far more critical lens.
The fundamental problem I have with communists true believers is your capacity to see how the system could work without the capacity to see its flaws. From a purely systems analysis, if all actors in the system had the same motivations and beliefs, I think there is a possibility it could work despite it’s flaws, but humans are not monolithic and I just don’t see it ever working prior to post work / post scarcity. Star Trek esque. All systems have their flaws, that’s why I believe, that at least in the present, blended systems have a stronger likelihood of positive outcomes. If we can manage to take the best parts of systems and blend them we have a better chance of arriving at a more equitable society than believing in an untested system that’s never going to happen.