Hamas are terrorists but the Israeli government’s hands are far from clean. You cant kill 10,000 palestinians in a matter of weeks, half of which are children, and maintain the moral high ground. And that is ignoring how modern Israel came about through the displacement of millions.
Who has the moral high ground in this conflict is a matter of opinion, you might be surprised what you would support if you and your loved ones were under constant threat of violence with no end in sight. Hamas has leveraged public distaste for civilian casualties quite effectively, maximizing it by hiding among them, and leaving Israel without other viable strategies to depose them.
I find myself far more sympathetic to Israel’s cause because they weren’t the ones that provoked this, their opponents clearly have less concern for civilian lives than they do but simply lack the means, Palestinian factions openly advocate for genocide of Jews, and have remained belligerent and unwilling to sue for viable peace for the last 70 years despite having lost every war they’ve waged on Israel. Israel has historically shown a great deal of restraint dealing with them for a very long time, but each wanton massacre moves them closer to seeking safety at any cost, even if that cost is many civilian lives.
It’s easy to feel sympathy for the underdog, but in this case, the underdog is explicitly genocidal, expects to be treated differently than they treat their opponents, which they constantly provoke with guerrilla attacks, while remaining unwilling to compromise for peace. I’m at a loss as to what other options are available to Israel that provides them meaningful safety without sacrificing their own people or national sovereignty.
Because giving up has worked so well for Palestinians before.
I don’t support Hamas’ actions, but I too understand them. The Palestinians have been abused for generations with no good way out in sight for them. They don’t have the power to make any real decisions or changes to the status quo here. It’s up to the side with power to figure out some way to make this work out better.
I also understand them, but to get into that headspace I must ignore many realities of their realpolitik situation and get into a mindset of anger, revenge and cold-blooded score settling over perceived injustices, remaining incensed over what one believes was taken from them and continues to be taken from them.
While I understand it, it only leads to counter-productive places that ultimately work against their interests. It ignores the complicated causes, historical ambiguities, and unpleasant facts regarding this conflict in favor of a one-sided interpretation. It is a narrative of victimhood and defiance that forgets how often they were the bully and instigator before they were the underdogs. The harsh reality is that at some level might does in fact make right, at least when it comes to international geopolitics. Ignoring this brought Palestine to here. They are an MMA fighter who started a fight, was put into an inescapable submission hold, refuses to tap out, and there is no ref who has authority to end the fight. And still, they keep headbutting the fighter that could break their arm at any moment.
There is a way out: Tap out, because no matter how righteous one’s cause is, it doesn’t change the fundamentals of the situation. How many lives is pride, perceived righteousness over a lost cause, worth? They could return the hostages, pacify, sue for peace, and get back freedoms and rights and safety at the cost of lands they were never getting back anyway.
It seems like the side with power has tried everything they can reasonably do to achieve peace in a way that retains their national autonomy and keeps their people safe as possible. So far, nothing has worked.
They could return the hostages, pacify, sue for peace, and get back freedoms and rights and safety at the cost of lands they were never getting back anyway.
And who’s going to ensure that they actually do get those freedoms and rights and safety back once this “deal” has been made? Frankly, I don’t believe the Israelis will ever give them back anything once it’s been taken away. There’s zero good faith to be had any more. The Israelis want them to completely cease to exist and they’re just probing around looking for the right way to make that happen without completely losing the support of their international sugar daddies.
The Palestinians also want the Israelis to cease to exist, of course. But as you have so eloquently put it, the Israelis are the ones who have the power to actually make the choices here. So I place the lion’s share of the blame for failing to find a compromise on them.
And who’s going to ensure that they actually do get those freedoms and rights and safety back once this “deal” has been made?
Any guarantees must be negotiated for. I’d say at this point releasing the hostages is a prerequisite for the war to end and that negotiation process to begin.
Frankly, I don’t believe the Israelis will ever give them back anything once it’s been taken away. There’s zero good faith to be had any more.
As in, they don’t trust Israel to adhere to terms of a treaty they agreed to? Well, they could invite in the UN or the US or some other neutral party like Egypt to verify that terms are met, with legal consequences if they are not.
Perhaps they can negotiate for some lands back, perhaps not, but I doubt they will get anything like the sweetheart deal they declared war over in '48. Palestine still has more to lose and have very little leverage so I’d expect any viable treaty to be written with this in mind; concessions will have to be made.
Keep in mind that the alternative is that current trends continue and they risk losing everything.
The Israelis want them to completely cease to exist and they’re just probing around looking for the right way to make that happen without completely losing the support of their international sugar daddies.
That’s not my take, they seem more like they are frustrated that their regularly and overwhelmingly-defeated enemy refuses to pacify themselves despite taking ever more from them and building a massive security apparatus around them. None of it has worked, so I suspect they will continue annexing more lands to create distance because wiping them out isn’t an option, whether you think it’s because of “international sugar daddies,” or their own history of being subjected to genocidal extermination, Israel is playing by a different and more humane playbook, even if it is still quite bloody.
I place the lion’s share of the blame for failing to find a compromise on them.
It’s their fault for not compromising with an enemy who is uncompromising? One of their demands is driving them into the sea, how can one compromise with this, especially when they hold all the cards?
I’m a Veteran and I have seen how terrorists use their fellow man and innocent shields. This is a tactic that terrorists use against their enemy. If you attack back you look bad and if you don’t your people die. It’s a lose lose situation but in the end Hamas is using people as shields and put the IDF in a situation where they had to choose their own well being over strangers.
Unfortunately this is a terrible situation for the people of Gaza but Hamas seemed to have pushed the last button. This is a situation where Hamas needs to find out the extent of Israels wrath and learn a lesson because if the lesson isn’t learned they will just do it again.
Israel exists because millions were displaced from their homes to create it. Settlers continually encroach further. And everyone that lived there is supposed to roll over and let it happen with no resistance whatsoever. Then there’s the current situation which is to put it lightly, a humanitarian disaster. Over a million gazans were essentially told to flee to the south or risk being bombed. And dont get me started on how journalists are being treated. Do not give me this poor innocent Israel horseshit.
The Nakba land was annexed because they declared war on Israel and lost. It’s almost like there’s consequences for trying to murder your neighbors. They might not want you as neighbors anymore.
As usual the people against israel try to hold them to a different standard. I mean when has any nation that declared war and got their ass kicked lost any territories as a consequence? /s.
For them, the natural consequences that have applied through history in other conflicts are somehow unjustified when they benefit israel.
This conflict is unusual in that Palestine doesn’t seem to care about the realpolitik or their odds regarding military solutions. The popular sentiment is that Palestinians want one state that they control, (and deny Jews rights in,) or no deal and the terrorist attacks continue. For obvious reasons this is not viable.
It seems most of the options that remain involve creating more distance from their belligerent enemy, which means Palestine loses even more land; unless they become willing to lay down arms and sue for peace, that is.
It’s seriously hard to take anything pro-Israel seriously knowing that they have a state-sponsored crowdsourced propaganda project where people undertake missions to spread pro-Israel propaganda, and smear Palestine.
Like for all we know your comment could’ve come straight from ACT-IL
Yes indeed. Both sides are heavily propagandizing social media so it’s good to be skeptical and insist on credible sources. Here’s an article about a pro-Palestine disinformation campaign on twitter trying to get Americans to stay out of the conflict, for example. I wouldn’t assume everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, nor would I assume that those who agree with you aren’t; I find it’s better to stick to the issues at hand than try to divine the motivations of random internet strangers.
Also, I suspect things are probably better here in that regard than on other platforms, as the feddiverse is still flying under the radar for those seeking to shape public opinion.
I never said anything about paid shill. Here’s a video where someone walks through the app. I don’t think people get paid, but they do earn badges and points and whatnot for spreading propaganda and mass-reporting content that’s posted to the app.
Thing is, I don’t have a horse in this race. Looking on from the outside what’s happening is disgusting, be it using hospitals as shields, thereby endangering people there, or turning off access to water to over two million people. There’s no right side here.
There’s also fuck all I can do about it so I generally just keep out of things. It’s not my mess to deal with.
That’s fascinating, they crowdsourced and gamified propaganda by weaponizing corporate sensitivity to offensiveness. Thanks for sharing that link, although the host definitely is promoting his own biases while showcasing the app, it was very informative and worth watching. Reading a little more into this, it appears Hamas has adapted to this technique by relying on Telegram to spread their messaging since the other platforms have removed them for extremist content.
This makes me appreciate another advantage of the feddiverse, the mass reporting techniques that this approach relies on to silence dissent might work on profit-driven social media companies, but here mods can use their own discretion rather than prioritizing financial and PR motivations for what gets removed like the for-profit companies have to.
Oh yeah. Caelan definitely have their own biases, they’re quite clearly very left on the political spectrum, but I couldn’t find another video or article where people are going through the app in the same fashion. Search engines mostly gave me rubbish about the ongoing conflict which isn’t at all what I was looking for. Google doesn’t work anymore.
Israel puts itself in this position by preventing Gazans from having weapons. They want to hold Gazans responsible for Hamas, but they continually and actively prevent the Gazans’ ability to actually take responsibility for their “government”.
Shes not wrong.
Hamas are terrorists but the Israeli government’s hands are far from clean. You cant kill 10,000 palestinians in a matter of weeks, half of which are children, and maintain the moral high ground. And that is ignoring how modern Israel came about through the displacement of millions.
Who has the moral high ground in this conflict is a matter of opinion, you might be surprised what you would support if you and your loved ones were under constant threat of violence with no end in sight. Hamas has leveraged public distaste for civilian casualties quite effectively, maximizing it by hiding among them, and leaving Israel without other viable strategies to depose them.
I find myself far more sympathetic to Israel’s cause because they weren’t the ones that provoked this, their opponents clearly have less concern for civilian lives than they do but simply lack the means, Palestinian factions openly advocate for genocide of Jews, and have remained belligerent and unwilling to sue for viable peace for the last 70 years despite having lost every war they’ve waged on Israel. Israel has historically shown a great deal of restraint dealing with them for a very long time, but each wanton massacre moves them closer to seeking safety at any cost, even if that cost is many civilian lives.
It’s easy to feel sympathy for the underdog, but in this case, the underdog is explicitly genocidal, expects to be treated differently than they treat their opponents, which they constantly provoke with guerrilla attacks, while remaining unwilling to compromise for peace. I’m at a loss as to what other options are available to Israel that provides them meaningful safety without sacrificing their own people or national sovereignty.
Congratulations, you understand Hamas.
Hamas could end this conflict tomorrow if willing to return their hostages, make concessions and sue for a viable peace.
Because giving up has worked so well for Palestinians before.
I don’t support Hamas’ actions, but I too understand them. The Palestinians have been abused for generations with no good way out in sight for them. They don’t have the power to make any real decisions or changes to the status quo here. It’s up to the side with power to figure out some way to make this work out better.
I also understand them, but to get into that headspace I must ignore many realities of their realpolitik situation and get into a mindset of anger, revenge and cold-blooded score settling over perceived injustices, remaining incensed over what one believes was taken from them and continues to be taken from them.
While I understand it, it only leads to counter-productive places that ultimately work against their interests. It ignores the complicated causes, historical ambiguities, and unpleasant facts regarding this conflict in favor of a one-sided interpretation. It is a narrative of victimhood and defiance that forgets how often they were the bully and instigator before they were the underdogs. The harsh reality is that at some level might does in fact make right, at least when it comes to international geopolitics. Ignoring this brought Palestine to here. They are an MMA fighter who started a fight, was put into an inescapable submission hold, refuses to tap out, and there is no ref who has authority to end the fight. And still, they keep headbutting the fighter that could break their arm at any moment.
There is a way out: Tap out, because no matter how righteous one’s cause is, it doesn’t change the fundamentals of the situation. How many lives is pride, perceived righteousness over a lost cause, worth? They could return the hostages, pacify, sue for peace, and get back freedoms and rights and safety at the cost of lands they were never getting back anyway.
It seems like the side with power has tried everything they can reasonably do to achieve peace in a way that retains their national autonomy and keeps their people safe as possible. So far, nothing has worked.
And who’s going to ensure that they actually do get those freedoms and rights and safety back once this “deal” has been made? Frankly, I don’t believe the Israelis will ever give them back anything once it’s been taken away. There’s zero good faith to be had any more. The Israelis want them to completely cease to exist and they’re just probing around looking for the right way to make that happen without completely losing the support of their international sugar daddies.
The Palestinians also want the Israelis to cease to exist, of course. But as you have so eloquently put it, the Israelis are the ones who have the power to actually make the choices here. So I place the lion’s share of the blame for failing to find a compromise on them.
Any guarantees must be negotiated for. I’d say at this point releasing the hostages is a prerequisite for the war to end and that negotiation process to begin.
As in, they don’t trust Israel to adhere to terms of a treaty they agreed to? Well, they could invite in the UN or the US or some other neutral party like Egypt to verify that terms are met, with legal consequences if they are not.
Perhaps they can negotiate for some lands back, perhaps not, but I doubt they will get anything like the sweetheart deal they declared war over in '48. Palestine still has more to lose and have very little leverage so I’d expect any viable treaty to be written with this in mind; concessions will have to be made.
Keep in mind that the alternative is that current trends continue and they risk losing everything.
That’s not my take, they seem more like they are frustrated that their regularly and overwhelmingly-defeated enemy refuses to pacify themselves despite taking ever more from them and building a massive security apparatus around them. None of it has worked, so I suspect they will continue annexing more lands to create distance because wiping them out isn’t an option, whether you think it’s because of “international sugar daddies,” or their own history of being subjected to genocidal extermination, Israel is playing by a different and more humane playbook, even if it is still quite bloody.
It’s their fault for not compromising with an enemy who is uncompromising? One of their demands is driving them into the sea, how can one compromise with this, especially when they hold all the cards?
So they should only begin to negotiate once their only bargaining chips have been given away?
Again, I don’t support what Hamas did. But they’re not idiots.
They are, and the IDF decided to bomb hospitals instead.
I’m no Hamas fan, but you’re really doing some mental gymnastics if you think that’s an appropriate response.
That’s certainly a Pro-Hamas biased way of interpreting recent events.
Hamas has been hiding in hospitals and firing at IDF forces from within them, and at least one of these bombings was caused by Hamas allies.
You got a source on that that can’t be traced back to the IDF press office?
I’m a Veteran and I have seen how terrorists use their fellow man and innocent shields. This is a tactic that terrorists use against their enemy. If you attack back you look bad and if you don’t your people die. It’s a lose lose situation but in the end Hamas is using people as shields and put the IDF in a situation where they had to choose their own well being over strangers.
Unfortunately this is a terrible situation for the people of Gaza but Hamas seemed to have pushed the last button. This is a situation where Hamas needs to find out the extent of Israels wrath and learn a lesson because if the lesson isn’t learned they will just do it again.
Will the Settlement expansion stop and roll back? No?
If they had left kids alone - even crying over their parents mutilated bodies - I would have supported their action fully.
The conflict hasn’t started on October 7th. The conflict started way before Hamas even existed.
Israel exists because millions were displaced from their homes to create it. Settlers continually encroach further. And everyone that lived there is supposed to roll over and let it happen with no resistance whatsoever. Then there’s the current situation which is to put it lightly, a humanitarian disaster. Over a million gazans were essentially told to flee to the south or risk being bombed. And dont get me started on how journalists are being treated. Do not give me this poor innocent Israel horseshit.
The Nakba land was annexed because they declared war on Israel and lost. It’s almost like there’s consequences for trying to murder your neighbors. They might not want you as neighbors anymore.
You are a ghoul if you think displacing a few million people from their homes in revenge is justified.
As usual the people against israel try to hold them to a different standard. I mean when has any nation that declared war and got their ass kicked lost any territories as a consequence? /s.
For them, the natural consequences that have applied through history in other conflicts are somehow unjustified when they benefit israel.
It was wrong when those countries did it and it is wrong when Israel does. Your argument is shit.
Yet somehow you only complain when it benefits israel. You probably don’t condemn hamas either so your bias and agenda is clear.
This can be confirmed by anyone with a look at your comments history so i’ll not respond further.
Literally every antiwar protester ever has decried when other countries do that. What in the fuck are you smoking?
What if it’s for safety and not revenge?
Doesn’t seem to have worked
This conflict is unusual in that Palestine doesn’t seem to care about the realpolitik or their odds regarding military solutions. The popular sentiment is that Palestinians want one state that they control, (and deny Jews rights in,) or no deal and the terrorist attacks continue. For obvious reasons this is not viable.
It seems most of the options that remain involve creating more distance from their belligerent enemy, which means Palestine loses even more land; unless they become willing to lay down arms and sue for peace, that is.
It’s seriously hard to take anything pro-Israel seriously knowing that they have a state-sponsored crowdsourced propaganda project where people undertake missions to spread pro-Israel propaganda, and smear Palestine.
Like for all we know your comment could’ve come straight from ACT-IL
Yes indeed. Both sides are heavily propagandizing social media so it’s good to be skeptical and insist on credible sources. Here’s an article about a pro-Palestine disinformation campaign on twitter trying to get Americans to stay out of the conflict, for example. I wouldn’t assume everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, nor would I assume that those who agree with you aren’t; I find it’s better to stick to the issues at hand than try to divine the motivations of random internet strangers.
Also, I suspect things are probably better here in that regard than on other platforms, as the feddiverse is still flying under the radar for those seeking to shape public opinion.
I never said anything about paid shill. Here’s a video where someone walks through the app. I don’t think people get paid, but they do earn badges and points and whatnot for spreading propaganda and mass-reporting content that’s posted to the app.
Thing is, I don’t have a horse in this race. Looking on from the outside what’s happening is disgusting, be it using hospitals as shields, thereby endangering people there, or turning off access to water to over two million people. There’s no right side here.
There’s also fuck all I can do about it so I generally just keep out of things. It’s not my mess to deal with.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Here’s a video where someone walks through the app.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That’s fascinating, they crowdsourced and gamified propaganda by weaponizing corporate sensitivity to offensiveness. Thanks for sharing that link, although the host definitely is promoting his own biases while showcasing the app, it was very informative and worth watching. Reading a little more into this, it appears Hamas has adapted to this technique by relying on Telegram to spread their messaging since the other platforms have removed them for extremist content.
This makes me appreciate another advantage of the feddiverse, the mass reporting techniques that this approach relies on to silence dissent might work on profit-driven social media companies, but here mods can use their own discretion rather than prioritizing financial and PR motivations for what gets removed like the for-profit companies have to.
Oh yeah. Caelan definitely have their own biases, they’re quite clearly very left on the political spectrum, but I couldn’t find another video or article where people are going through the app in the same fashion. Search engines mostly gave me rubbish about the ongoing conflict which isn’t at all what I was looking for. Google doesn’t work anymore.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Google doesn’t work anymore.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Israel puts itself in this position by preventing Gazans from having weapons. They want to hold Gazans responsible for Hamas, but they continually and actively prevent the Gazans’ ability to actually take responsibility for their “government”.