Ok, yes i wrote that not in a good way but it seems you missed my point. My point was that me being friendly was taken as me wanting to bang. That happens irl and it happens in this game. Just because this happens irl does not mean i have to enjoy them ingame. I simply hate awkward situations and while i might be able to dodge them irl i can dodge them in my games which would not make me an anyphobe. There were 4 Characters that hit on me and only one romance i was interested in. Indeed i have felt the same level of awkwardness no matter the sex of the character i rejected.
No, I understood what you said. The point I was making was that while many people are perfectly ok shrugging off women they don’t want to partner with, they get all icky and upset when it comes to shrugging off a man they don’t want to partner with.
Like in your post you specifically singled out Gale. Yet here you are kind of ret-conning that to “4 characters that hit on you.” But when you commented your initial complaint it was just Gale. It was just the gay one.
That’s what I’m talking about when I say subconscious prejudice/homophobia. I’m not putting you on the same level as the mod maker or some rabid homophobe who’s out there trying to take rights away. But I am asking you to examine your reaction and consider if maybe there was something more to it then just “I don’t wanna bang this person.” Why specifically the sympathy for people who don’t like Gale coming on to them vs people who don’t want space-lizard-with-tits or daddy’s princess coming on to them? That’s all.
There have been multiple times that I’ve been friendly with women and they’ll randomly blurt out “I have a boyfriend/husband/partner”. This is a universal feeling, and it makes the game all the more realistic that it includes that. Unfortunately it had to happen with a gay character so people are able to toe the line of homophobia and say that they just didn’t like the rejection.
I would be fine with a mod that simply removed the harsh rejection. It’s not great for queer exposure and empathy building, but I wouldn’t call that outright homophobia. It’s lightyears ahead of turning the gay woman into a man.
I dunno Yogi, seems hypocritical to champion inclusively in gaming on one hand and tell folks they are probably playing the wrong game for wanting to avoid a specific feature in it.
I fully agree that mod sites should not tolerate bigoted mods. But saying someone should avoid playing a game they enjoy just because there is a specifically uncomfortable social interaction for them, when it could be modded out had the same energy as the folks saying the Sekiro easy mode mod shouldn’t exist.
Should they remove the “feminist Nerevarine” mod from Morrowind as well because there is sexism in the game, just because some folks still want to play it but not be forced to personally engage in sexist behavior? Should they remove the “Spiders are Wolves” mod in Skyrim? Should people not play games they only enjoy modded? If so, Bethesda is in big trouble…
This issue isn’t really about equality, it’s about exposure and building empathy. The more people are exposed to the plight that queer people face every day, the more likely they are to build an empathetic connection to them, to care about queer issues, to see it through their eyes, and to understand and support them through it.
I am all for exposure, and building empathy. I do think representation is extremely important. And I greatly appreciate you sharing your point of view with me. I hadn’t considered that to the extent I should have. And I whole heartedly agree that greater exposure to the situations being discussed would lead to a more ideal society.
My only point was that if they want to mod out the awkward conversations where they have to turn down their friends advances, regardless of the characters sex, gender, or orientation, and that is the only road bump preventing them from fully enjoying one of the best RPG’s, then I think it’s okay that they get to enjoy their game. They didn’t strike me as being bigoted, they didn’t ask for LGBTQ+ representation to be removed from the game, they just felt bad about hurting their friends feelings. That to me already shows a fair amount of empathy.
And if such a mod (again, not the bigoted mod the post is about, but the hypothetical mod being discussed in this comment thread that “allows you to have less awkward methods of not engaging in relationships with characters you are not romantically interested in so as to avoid feeling bad about turning down your friends”) is the difference between them playing the game or not, then wouldn’t also be fair to say they are getting more exposure just by being able to play the game?
If you feel that wanting to avoid hurting your friends feelings in a game through mods would cause a significant blow to society developing empathy for and getting exposure to LGBTQ+ issues, while we do have a difference of opinion on that line, I still respect the battle you are choosing to champion and say more power to you. Good luck fighting the good fight.
Eeey Boo Boo, if you complain about sword combat in dark souls, it was-a probably not dark souls’ fault and you should-a probably find a different game
I could mod the combat out of dark souls too. But if youre doing that, you should just go play a game that has the things you want in it and doesnt have the things youre not looking for.
Its a dnd simulation, and dnd is a lot of social roleplay of awkward moments and scenes. I totally get if thats not your bag, but typically when half of a game isnt your bag you just pass on it.
lol. Don’t get me wrong, I see your point (fwiw, I did not mod sword combat out of Dark Souls, or difficult role playing decisions out of my RPG’s). But I just don’t think someone else doing so in a non-bigoted way is that big of a deal. Especially when they made it clear that they just don’t want to hurt their in game friends feelings, regardless of their sex, gender, or orientation. And if that is the only little road bump to them enjoying what is one of the best RPG’s I’ve ever played, then I say I would rather have them not miss the game.
Where did I say it was a big deal? I said they should probs not play a game thats 50% the things they hate
The social decisions is why its the best rpg youve played. The romance and party interactions is all bg3 players talk about. If youre modding that out? You probably are playing it cause its popular, and should just go play something you dont need to cut in half to have fun with.
You didn’t say it was a big deal, I said I didn’t think it was a big deal. Even if someone wanted to remove all of the dialogue from the game because they just loved the combat, classes, skill, etc, I wouldn’t think its a big deal. I love the RPG elements in BG3 (frankly, awkward social interaction simulators are some of my favorite games), but I don’t really mind if someone plays something just because it’s popular and they want to see what the buzz is about. Nor do I mind if they have specific anxieties that they don’t want to be subjected to (no different from turning the giant spiders into bears in Skyrim imho). Nor if they just want to be on a power trip in a world that they like the design and lore of. And if they can have fun doing so, I really don’t see why they should avoid that just because they might have to experience the fun of modding as well.
Maybe I misread your comment, but you saying:
If you cant handle awkward social interactions in the “fantasy social interactions simulator” youre probably playing the wrong game
In response to their comment:
My point was that me being friendly was taken as me wanting to bang. That happens irl and it happens in this game. Just because this happens irl does not mean i have to enjoy them ingame. I simply hate awkward situations and while i might be able to dodge them irl i can dodge them in my games which would not make me an anyphobe. There were 4 Characters that hit on me and only one romance i was interested in. Indeed i have felt the same level of awkwardness no matter the sex of the character i rejected.
Made it seem like you believed @[email protected] wanted to remove 50% of the game, as opposed to the single situation they said they wanted to avoid. I can see how you might have assumed their statement that they “hate awkward social interactions” meant all possible interactions that could be construed as awkward. But when I read their comment, it seemed to me like they meant a specific interaction they personally find awkward, and to me that one interaction does not constitute 50% of the game. Rather it is just 1% of that 50%.
Guess I just choose the “people should be allowed to enjoy the games they want the way the want” hill to die on today. Gatekeeping fun has never sat right with me.
They didnt want to avoid a single situation, they said they wanted to avoid all awkward conversations with npcs. Have you played bg3? Thats a very large portion of the non combat. They were fairly clear that it wasnt just the romance turn downs, but the awkwardness of the npcs specifically. Thats a lot of this game.
I dunno how its gatekeeping to tell someone they dont sound like they enjoy the game theyre talking about, and would probably have more fun playing something without it. Seems explicitly the opposite of that, actually. But if you want to make sure you die on this hill you can go right ahead with that take
Could you point out where they were “fairly clear” that they wanted to avoid all awkward social interactions, and could you explain how you are so confident you know what interactions they deem awkward? Because it seems to me like you are making a lot of assumptions.
They were specifically talking about the awkwardness they feel when turning down romantic advances. They did say they “hate awkward social interactions”, but seeing as they also are talking about turning down romantic advances detracting from their enjoyment, it’s fair to assume they found that specific event awkward. They very well could have (and indeed seemed to me to have) meant that they don’t like personally rejecting the advancements of people they are close with. That does not mean that they find the same awkwardness in any of the other role-playing events.
Also, since they were saying removing those specific interactions would enhance their enjoyment, it’s fair to assume they were enjoying the game.
In regards to “how it was gatekeeping”, you might have missed that I indicated I could have misunderstood your intent. But telling someone that they shouldn’t play a game they want to and it sounds like they enjoy, just because it has an aspect they don’t enjoy that could be modded out, is gatekeeping. I get that you believe they hate all of the interactions that could possibly be seen as awkward, and that under that impression you made what I’ll assume to be an honest attempt to steer them away from playing a game they might not enjoy. But frankly, we disagree on how much of the game they found to be awkward, and just as you seem to have missed my point, and I believe you missed their point, I guess it was just very easy to misinterpret your “friendly recommendation” as telling them if they don’t like every aspect of a game you like out of the box, they should stop playing it, when they could very well just mod it to be even more fun for them.
If I took advice like yours, even in it’s best intent, I would have missed out on some of my very favorite games. Daggerfall, couldn’t get into it at all, Daggerfall Unity, amazing. New Vegas at launch on the PS3, frustrated me to no end, modded a decade later, top 5 games of my life. Warcraft 3 (hell any RTS), can’t stand em. DOTA, lost countless hours to (and that one they gutted 90% of the game). Sometimes, being willing to make your game your own is the path to enjoyment.
Ok, yes i wrote that not in a good way but it seems you missed my point. My point was that me being friendly was taken as me wanting to bang. That happens irl and it happens in this game. Just because this happens irl does not mean i have to enjoy them ingame. I simply hate awkward situations and while i might be able to dodge them irl i can dodge them in my games which would not make me an anyphobe. There were 4 Characters that hit on me and only one romance i was interested in. Indeed i have felt the same level of awkwardness no matter the sex of the character i rejected.
No, I understood what you said. The point I was making was that while many people are perfectly ok shrugging off women they don’t want to partner with, they get all icky and upset when it comes to shrugging off a man they don’t want to partner with.
Like in your post you specifically singled out Gale. Yet here you are kind of ret-conning that to “4 characters that hit on you.” But when you commented your initial complaint it was just Gale. It was just the gay one.
That’s what I’m talking about when I say subconscious prejudice/homophobia. I’m not putting you on the same level as the mod maker or some rabid homophobe who’s out there trying to take rights away. But I am asking you to examine your reaction and consider if maybe there was something more to it then just “I don’t wanna bang this person.” Why specifically the sympathy for people who don’t like Gale coming on to them vs people who don’t want space-lizard-with-tits or daddy’s princess coming on to them? That’s all.
There have been multiple times that I’ve been friendly with women and they’ll randomly blurt out “I have a boyfriend/husband/partner”. This is a universal feeling, and it makes the game all the more realistic that it includes that. Unfortunately it had to happen with a gay character so people are able to toe the line of homophobia and say that they just didn’t like the rejection.
I would be fine with a mod that simply removed the harsh rejection. It’s not great for queer exposure and empathy building, but I wouldn’t call that outright homophobia. It’s lightyears ahead of turning the gay woman into a man.
If you cant handle awkward social interactions in the “fantasy social interactions simulator” youre probably playing the wrong game
I dunno Yogi, seems hypocritical to champion inclusively in gaming on one hand and tell folks they are probably playing the wrong game for wanting to avoid a specific feature in it.
I fully agree that mod sites should not tolerate bigoted mods. But saying someone should avoid playing a game they enjoy just because there is a specifically uncomfortable social interaction for them, when it could be modded out had the same energy as the folks saying the Sekiro easy mode mod shouldn’t exist.
Should they remove the “feminist Nerevarine” mod from Morrowind as well because there is sexism in the game, just because some folks still want to play it but not be forced to personally engage in sexist behavior? Should they remove the “Spiders are Wolves” mod in Skyrim? Should people not play games they only enjoy modded? If so, Bethesda is in big trouble…
This issue isn’t really about equality, it’s about exposure and building empathy. The more people are exposed to the plight that queer people face every day, the more likely they are to build an empathetic connection to them, to care about queer issues, to see it through their eyes, and to understand and support them through it.
I am all for exposure, and building empathy. I do think representation is extremely important. And I greatly appreciate you sharing your point of view with me. I hadn’t considered that to the extent I should have. And I whole heartedly agree that greater exposure to the situations being discussed would lead to a more ideal society.
My only point was that if they want to mod out the awkward conversations where they have to turn down their friends advances, regardless of the characters sex, gender, or orientation, and that is the only road bump preventing them from fully enjoying one of the best RPG’s, then I think it’s okay that they get to enjoy their game. They didn’t strike me as being bigoted, they didn’t ask for LGBTQ+ representation to be removed from the game, they just felt bad about hurting their friends feelings. That to me already shows a fair amount of empathy.
And if such a mod (again, not the bigoted mod the post is about, but the hypothetical mod being discussed in this comment thread that “allows you to have less awkward methods of not engaging in relationships with characters you are not romantically interested in so as to avoid feeling bad about turning down your friends”) is the difference between them playing the game or not, then wouldn’t also be fair to say they are getting more exposure just by being able to play the game?
If you feel that wanting to avoid hurting your friends feelings in a game through mods would cause a significant blow to society developing empathy for and getting exposure to LGBTQ+ issues, while we do have a difference of opinion on that line, I still respect the battle you are choosing to champion and say more power to you. Good luck fighting the good fight.
Eeey Boo Boo, if you complain about sword combat in dark souls, it was-a probably not dark souls’ fault and you should-a probably find a different game
I could mod the combat out of dark souls too. But if youre doing that, you should just go play a game that has the things you want in it and doesnt have the things youre not looking for.
Its a dnd simulation, and dnd is a lot of social roleplay of awkward moments and scenes. I totally get if thats not your bag, but typically when half of a game isnt your bag you just pass on it.
I can safely say in my ~30 years of playing DnD I’ve never once been propositioned for gay sex.
lol. Don’t get me wrong, I see your point (fwiw, I did not mod sword combat out of Dark Souls, or difficult role playing decisions out of my RPG’s). But I just don’t think someone else doing so in a non-bigoted way is that big of a deal. Especially when they made it clear that they just don’t want to hurt their in game friends feelings, regardless of their sex, gender, or orientation. And if that is the only little road bump to them enjoying what is one of the best RPG’s I’ve ever played, then I say I would rather have them not miss the game.
Where did I say it was a big deal? I said they should probs not play a game thats 50% the things they hate
The social decisions is why its the best rpg youve played. The romance and party interactions is all bg3 players talk about. If youre modding that out? You probably are playing it cause its popular, and should just go play something you dont need to cut in half to have fun with.
You didn’t say it was a big deal, I said I didn’t think it was a big deal. Even if someone wanted to remove all of the dialogue from the game because they just loved the combat, classes, skill, etc, I wouldn’t think its a big deal. I love the RPG elements in BG3 (frankly, awkward social interaction simulators are some of my favorite games), but I don’t really mind if someone plays something just because it’s popular and they want to see what the buzz is about. Nor do I mind if they have specific anxieties that they don’t want to be subjected to (no different from turning the giant spiders into bears in Skyrim imho). Nor if they just want to be on a power trip in a world that they like the design and lore of. And if they can have fun doing so, I really don’t see why they should avoid that just because they might have to experience the fun of modding as well.
Maybe I misread your comment, but you saying:
In response to their comment:
Made it seem like you believed @[email protected] wanted to remove 50% of the game, as opposed to the single situation they said they wanted to avoid. I can see how you might have assumed their statement that they “hate awkward social interactions” meant all possible interactions that could be construed as awkward. But when I read their comment, it seemed to me like they meant a specific interaction they personally find awkward, and to me that one interaction does not constitute 50% of the game. Rather it is just 1% of that 50%.
Guess I just choose the “people should be allowed to enjoy the games they want the way the want” hill to die on today. Gatekeeping fun has never sat right with me.
They didnt want to avoid a single situation, they said they wanted to avoid all awkward conversations with npcs. Have you played bg3? Thats a very large portion of the non combat. They were fairly clear that it wasnt just the romance turn downs, but the awkwardness of the npcs specifically. Thats a lot of this game.
I dunno how its gatekeeping to tell someone they dont sound like they enjoy the game theyre talking about, and would probably have more fun playing something without it. Seems explicitly the opposite of that, actually. But if you want to make sure you die on this hill you can go right ahead with that take
Could you point out where they were “fairly clear” that they wanted to avoid all awkward social interactions, and could you explain how you are so confident you know what interactions they deem awkward? Because it seems to me like you are making a lot of assumptions.
They were specifically talking about the awkwardness they feel when turning down romantic advances. They did say they “hate awkward social interactions”, but seeing as they also are talking about turning down romantic advances detracting from their enjoyment, it’s fair to assume they found that specific event awkward. They very well could have (and indeed seemed to me to have) meant that they don’t like personally rejecting the advancements of people they are close with. That does not mean that they find the same awkwardness in any of the other role-playing events.
Also, since they were saying removing those specific interactions would enhance their enjoyment, it’s fair to assume they were enjoying the game.
In regards to “how it was gatekeeping”, you might have missed that I indicated I could have misunderstood your intent. But telling someone that they shouldn’t play a game they want to and it sounds like they enjoy, just because it has an aspect they don’t enjoy that could be modded out, is gatekeeping. I get that you believe they hate all of the interactions that could possibly be seen as awkward, and that under that impression you made what I’ll assume to be an honest attempt to steer them away from playing a game they might not enjoy. But frankly, we disagree on how much of the game they found to be awkward, and just as you seem to have missed my point, and I believe you missed their point, I guess it was just very easy to misinterpret your “friendly recommendation” as telling them if they don’t like every aspect of a game you like out of the box, they should stop playing it, when they could very well just mod it to be even more fun for them.
If I took advice like yours, even in it’s best intent, I would have missed out on some of my very favorite games. Daggerfall, couldn’t get into it at all, Daggerfall Unity, amazing. New Vegas at launch on the PS3, frustrated me to no end, modded a decade later, top 5 games of my life. Warcraft 3 (hell any RTS), can’t stand em. DOTA, lost countless hours to (and that one they gutted 90% of the game). Sometimes, being willing to make your game your own is the path to enjoyment.
That’s really not my experience with D&D. It’s fairly common to play in games without too many awkward interactions.