• @woelkchen
    link
    English
    25 months ago

    The most obvious visual example that comes to mind is the pattern they still use for flickering lights which has been around since the Quake days.

    But you wrote “To this day, Valve is using a game engine that is, at its core, the Quake engine from 1996” and that’s just untrue. Just because nobody ever saw the need to change the light flickering pattern for no reason other than to make it new, doesn’t mean that Source2 is “at its core” still Quake1. Even the community-maintained wiki (not a officially sanctioned Valve document, btw) you’ve linked only speaks about “some residual Quake code”.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      English
      185 months ago

      Semantics.

      Another to look at it is that if Valve properly managed their VCS, you could do git ls-files HEAD^10000 and see Quake/goldsrc code building the foundation for everything that came after. Every subsequent rewrite and refactor was shaped and constrained by what came before and what hadn’t been rewritten yet. If they had started with another engine, they wouldn’t have ended up here.

      Beyond semantics, Source 2’s lineage is still very apparent. While the engine is very good at what it does, it’s without question much better suited to a rather specific class of semi-realistic 3D games. It has a look, a feel, strengths and weaknesses. It can’t be Unity or Unreal Engine, and it would have been a ridiculous mistake to use it as a base for Elite Dangerous or Assassin’s Creed Valhalla or Terraria.

      • @woelkchen
        link
        English
        -125 months ago

        Funny that you claim deeper insight into Source2 than Valve.

        Source2 was first developed for Dota. It’s way more likely that its limitations are because it was never developed as a complete allrounder, not because some minor bits and pieces like flickering pattern were developed in the 1990s because that’s also where Unreal Engine was first developed.

          • @woelkchen
            link
            English
            -25 months ago

            And why wouldn’t I be? The person who claimed that Source2 was basically Quake1 at its core had two bits of “proof”, the Valve wiki that refers to “some residual Quake code” and light flickering pattern. That’s it. Suddenly it’s just “semantics”. Yeah, right. Valve developers referred to CS2 as a completely new engine. That’s not semantics, that’s not splitting hairs, that’s straight of Valve’s mouth.

      • @woelkchen
        link
        English
        25 months ago

        When does the ship change from the ship of Theseus into something else?

        When they decide to build a completely new ship with a steam engine and bring the lamps from the old ship because why not. They’re good lamps.

        • Cethin
          link
          fedilink
          English
          05 months ago

          Surprisingly, that isn’t what the thought experiment has in mind. It was created before any kind of engine for a ship, so clearly they had other ideas. Generally it’s asked if it’s still the same shop when only one board from the original ship remains? If so, is it suddenly a different ship when that board is replaced? Before then all other boards were part of the Ship of Theseus, so why does that one board matter? If it doesn’t matter though, what does it mean to be The ship of Theseus?

          • @woelkchen
            link
            English
            15 months ago

            I know the original thought experiment but it doesn’t apply here because Source2 is a completely new engine with some residual stuff brought over like light flickering pattern.

            • Cethin
              link
              fedilink
              English
              05 months ago

              It is not a “completely new engine”. That’s an insane statement. The renderer is mostly new, but the way it handles entities is pretty much the same. An engine is a large collection of tools. Some of those tools being changed out doesn’t mean you have a whole new toolbox.

              • @woelkchen
                link
                English
                05 months ago

                Please talk to the Valve developers who said this in interviews about the Source2 Counter-Strike port that they make insane statements. I’m simply believing the actual creators over random guys on the internet.

                • Cethin
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  05 months ago

                  And the creators of The Creation Engine 2 said the same thing, but we don’t believe them around here do we…

                  I doubt they said that it’s totally new. Give me a source for that. I believe the renderer is mostly new, but there’s still many components that inherit from the existing tech stack.

                  • @woelkchen
                    link
                    English
                    05 months ago

                    Give me a source for that.

                    Your camp: “At its core Source2 is still just Quake1!!!”

                    Me: “I’ve read different in interviews.”

                    Your camp: “Haha! Here is proof: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Quake/en and don’t forget the light flickering, oh god, the light flickering!!!”

                    Me: “It literally just says ‘some residual Quake code’.”

                    You: *Fuck, he got us. Quick, be needlessly aggressive!!!*. “Give me a source for that.”

                    Me: “I don’t make an archive of transcripts of every interview I’ve ever encounter. Despite that, your camp made the initial claim, so if anything it’s your side that needs to produce the proof and you didn’t…”

                    You: “Haha! Gotcha! While neither me not my friends have produced any evidence for our initial claim except the four words ‘some residual Quake code’ on a wiki literally everyone can edit and light flickering on Imgur, we are victorious via the old tactic of making baseless claims and then aggressively demanding evidence from THEM!!!”