For me the line needs to be crossed. As soon as that happens, action can be taken. But guilty-by-association isn’t enough (and that’s how I see marching)
If someone makes a legit threat (or commits a crime) against another person, then something should be done to address that (what that something is needs to be proportional and preferably reform-based)
Like what’s happening to Trump and the Jan 6th crowd. The peeps involved are being handed sentences. Evidence against the baddies need to be properly collected so that they can be brought to justice in a civilized way.
You need a visual on them for that to happen. Let them march, identify them, and keep track of their behaviour. They’re fine… until they step out of line. And if they do, you know who they are, how many, etc.
I can understand why people misunderstand me and my meaning. I look at things with empathy, a love of freedom, a deep desire for open discussions, autonomy, and belief in taking action against others only when it’s truly justifiable (such as cases of physical threat, or impending threat)
Sure ok but you haven’t actually addressed the paradox of tolerance.
It’s great that you love freedom, autonomy, and open discussions, but what if there is a group of people intent on using this inclusivity to promulgate their agenda, which is intolerance?
To say the same thing another way, these ideals are based on the premise that everyone is acting in good faith, but some are not.
As you say you need to wait until people step out of line. Modern society has determined that the “line” is somewhere before assembling in overtly intolerant groups. A parade of Nazism is already out of line.
You’re right, but we have to be careful. We can’t rely on what society deems acceptable as the total and reasonable truth. That’s how Nazism rises in the first place.
Idk if you saw that post about Ignaz Semmelweis, who proposed that docs should wash their hands (and was so mocked that he ended up having a break-down and died after a beating in the asylum). Society at the time couldn’t accept his radical new idea. There are so many times in history (Galileo spending his last years under house arrest because heliocentrism was considered heresy) where people were persecuted for having ideas that went against society
I have a mixed bag of beliefs that are frankly half-baked, which is why I’m happy to have these kinds of debates
But what I’m getting at is that I dislike repressing people and ideas just because the status quo says you should repress them- even if that means undesirable idiologies creep in. We need to examine them closely, in an open minded way that isn’t immediately crushing because we can miss opportunities for growth
I’m liberal. I believe in autonomy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. I am against genocide, racism, sexism, and all that
However- we have to let them speak and argue against them. We need to be pushing back against things like book removals, and pushing for funding of schools. It’s exhausting, and considerably more difficult, but I think it’s a better way to go
Imagine if, at these marches, you and I had a big screen which displayed the horrors of concentration camps. The images of fingernail marks embedded in the metal of the gas chambers. Images of the disease. Excerpts from the wretched experiments.
Maybe it’s naive, but I believe we would sway enough of those people marching that to weaken their cause.
Just yelling at them to shut up, or arresting them when half of them don’t even think it was real isn’t gonna work. It’ll just strengthen the cause and send them underground
I’m almost certain how aware of it, but you haven’t addressed the intolerance paradox.
For me the line needs to be crossed. As soon as that happens, action can be taken. But guilty-by-association isn’t enough (and that’s how I see marching)
If someone makes a legit threat (or commits a crime) against another person, then something should be done to address that (what that something is needs to be proportional and preferably reform-based)
Like what’s happening to Trump and the Jan 6th crowd. The peeps involved are being handed sentences. Evidence against the baddies need to be properly collected so that they can be brought to justice in a civilized way.
You need a visual on them for that to happen. Let them march, identify them, and keep track of their behaviour. They’re fine… until they step out of line. And if they do, you know who they are, how many, etc.
I can understand why people misunderstand me and my meaning. I look at things with empathy, a love of freedom, a deep desire for open discussions, autonomy, and belief in taking action against others only when it’s truly justifiable (such as cases of physical threat, or impending threat)
Sure ok but you haven’t actually addressed the paradox of tolerance.
It’s great that you love freedom, autonomy, and open discussions, but what if there is a group of people intent on using this inclusivity to promulgate their agenda, which is intolerance?
To say the same thing another way, these ideals are based on the premise that everyone is acting in good faith, but some are not.
As you say you need to wait until people step out of line. Modern society has determined that the “line” is somewhere before assembling in overtly intolerant groups. A parade of Nazism is already out of line.
You’re right, but we have to be careful. We can’t rely on what society deems acceptable as the total and reasonable truth. That’s how Nazism rises in the first place.
Idk if you saw that post about Ignaz Semmelweis, who proposed that docs should wash their hands (and was so mocked that he ended up having a break-down and died after a beating in the asylum). Society at the time couldn’t accept his radical new idea. There are so many times in history (Galileo spending his last years under house arrest because heliocentrism was considered heresy) where people were persecuted for having ideas that went against society
I have a mixed bag of beliefs that are frankly half-baked, which is why I’m happy to have these kinds of debates
But what I’m getting at is that I dislike repressing people and ideas just because the status quo says you should repress them- even if that means undesirable idiologies creep in. We need to examine them closely, in an open minded way that isn’t immediately crushing because we can miss opportunities for growth
I’m liberal. I believe in autonomy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. I am against genocide, racism, sexism, and all that
However- we have to let them speak and argue against them. We need to be pushing back against things like book removals, and pushing for funding of schools. It’s exhausting, and considerably more difficult, but I think it’s a better way to go
Imagine if, at these marches, you and I had a big screen which displayed the horrors of concentration camps. The images of fingernail marks embedded in the metal of the gas chambers. Images of the disease. Excerpts from the wretched experiments.
Maybe it’s naive, but I believe we would sway enough of those people marching that to weaken their cause.
Just yelling at them to shut up, or arresting them when half of them don’t even think it was real isn’t gonna work. It’ll just strengthen the cause and send them underground