That’s only the ideal case. People generally don’t jump from physicalism straight to this ideal case. With the practice of magick and constant contemplation and meditation one gradually, at their option, can arrive to that condition.
Some thoughts on this:
The idea would be to get to that state as fast as possible. Whether it really ends up taking 1 year, 20 years, or 50 life times, you will always be able to get there in the fastest possible manner if you frame your perspective such that the desired “end state” is realistically within your grasp and not something that is “far far away”.
That’s why, when you are shedding your physicalist world views, you have to ideally jump at every opportunity to imply against that, by implying that your world is in fact dream-like (or whatever else a practitioner might be personally interested in). You already mentioned that with constant contemplation, meditation, etc.
But it always is important to frame your perspective so that your final state is easily within your grasp, because everything is essentially a reflection of what you think it is. So if you think that it will take multiple life times, it probably will. But if you think it is readily achievable in a single life time (and you have a planned out pathway to get there) then you probably will achieve it in this life time, hopefully.
I plan to jump from 0-100 straight away. So mostly from a tame, physicalist-like existence to an existence where complex psychic transformations are nothing but a drop in the wind. It sounds almost impossible and ridiculous but it’s 100% feasible imo, given enough practice and determination. If I don’t get it in this life time, then I failed.
I think “just being” tends to cultivate the tolerance side much more than it cultivates expressiveness, but a complete mage in my view needs both sides to be well developed.
Yes. Tolerance can curb any suffering that might result from magickal pursuits and expressiveness will nicely complement that of course. They are both absolutely crucial to maintaining a semblance of balance and control. Otherwise an overly eager practitioner could find themselves in a serious bind and their suffering might prevent them from ever getting out, that would be a devastating position to be in. Imagine visiting a hellish realm out of curiosity and being unable to get out because your panic is clouding your mind and locking you in place.
As for cultivating magick, my personal interpretation is that tolerance is first ramped up to maybe 60%-70%, so that “just being” becomes your default state. Then you flip the whole thing around, turn that 60%-70% tolerance to full blown 80%-90% expressiveness in an instant. Building up the tolerance is what takes the longest amount of time in this method, but once its become your default state, the hard work is mostly done and you’re ready to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-11 21:19:25 (dmunpde)
That’s why, when you are shedding your physicalist world views, you have to ideally jump at every opportunity to imply against that, by implying that your world is in fact dream-like (or whatever else a practitioner might be personally interested in). You already mentioned that with constant contemplation, meditation, etc.
But it always is important to frame your perspective so that your final state is easily within your grasp, because everything is essentially a reflection of what you think it is. So if you think that it will take multiple life times, it probably will. But if you think it is readily achievable in a single life time (and you have a planned out pathway to get there) then you probably will achieve it in this life time, hopefully.
Because beliefs taken seriously tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies it’s important to be careful about what one believes.
That said, without meeting one’s present limitations in a sincere manner there is no hope of transforming them.
How to meet one’s temporary limitations without solidifying those limitations into a self-fulfilling prophecy is an art form. One could say I am a self-proclaimed master of that art form.
Resolve is important. The idea of many lifetimes should not be scary or arouse impatience. Even if what I seek is beyond the end of time itself, I will get there. Since that’s the level of my resolve, then it won’t take too long for me. But at the same time I will not trivialize it either but rather meet what’s happening in my mind with sincerity.
I plan to jump from 0-100 straight away. So mostly from a tame, physicalist-like existence to an existence where complex psychic transformations are nothing but a drop in the wind. It sounds almost impossible and ridiculous but it’s 100% feasible imo, given enough practice and determination. If I don’t get it in this life time, then I failed.
This kind of resolve is better than average but it’s not quite immortal diamond-like resolve. You shouldn’t care about time. One should focus on correctness instead of being in a hurry. Haste makes waste.
Neither hurrying nor tarrying, we advance in a manner that’s hard to calculate and understand for ordinary mortals.
As for cultivating magick, my personal interpretation is that tolerance is first ramped up to maybe 60%-70%, so that “just being” becomes your default state. Then you flip the whole thing around, turn that 60%-70% tolerance to full blown 80%-90% expressiveness in an instant. Building up the tolerance is what takes the longest amount of time in this method, but once its become your default state, the hard work is mostly done and you’re ready to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
That’s best left up to each individual imo. Your approach is pretty conservative. It’s really weird. You’re in such hurry but you adopt this very meek approach. I’m in no hurry at all and yet my approach is more aggressive. Like I said, everyone has to decide what they want.
I’ll tell you one thing. Yes, you can learn to be more graceful under pressure and this will prepare you for what’s to come, but there is also merit to banging your head against the wall before being fully prepared. One can then learn a thing or two from that experience that is hard to learn otherwise.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-12 10:14:31 (dmvow34)
How to meet one’s temporary limitations without solidifying those limitations into a self-fulfilling prophecy is an art form. One could say I am a self-proclaimed master of that art form.
Absolutely. Often times a practitioner isn’t even aware that they’re running in circles, it’s very common to see it in the spiritual community, people who think they’re making progress, but unfortunately they don’t realize that they’re just perpetuating their current situation endlessly.
Resolve is important. The idea of many lifetimes should not be scary or arouse impatience. Even if what I seek is beyond the end of time itself, I will get there. Since that’s the level of my resolve, then it won’t take too long for me. But at the same time I will not trivialize it either but rather meet what’s happening in my mind with sincerity.
Impatience is a thorn in the side, it’s very important to cultivate balance. The thought of endless life times sounds tiresome to me, you could say my resolve would be very weak by the time I get to these future life times, still existent but weak. I see it more as an emergency back up, a plan B.
You shouldn’t care about time. One should focus on correctness instead of being in a hurry. Haste makes waste.
Yep, something I’m working on. Trying to rush it is useless. But this is something I want right now and as long as I feel that way, it feels like it’s realistically achievable.
But then again, a physicalist existence is completely out of the question anyway. I’d rather die than go back to impenetrable physicalism, it’s not even remotely an option anymore so I have nothing else but to go as hard as I can at this, this is my sole goal in existence. Failure cannot be an option, even if it does end up taking multiple life times. Who knows even, I’ve probably already done multiple life times with this stuff anyway.
Your approach is pretty conservative. It’s really weird. You’re in such hurry but you adopt this very meek approach. I’m in no hurry at all and yet my approach is more aggressive.
I guess it is fairly conservative. The thing I’ve found for myself, is that I find it hard to adapt to aggressive tactics, for whatever reason, it is a weakness of mine, it becomes like a war of attrition. There is a certain minimum requirement of aggressive tactics that are absolutely necessary to make any progress with s.idealism, so I stick to that minimum level and over compensate by building tolerance or resistance against intrusive patterns and aspects of existence.
Compared to aggressive tactics, it might appear meek but I wouldn’t call it meek so much as it’s like building an impenetrable fortress made up of titanium, a fortress so large and powerful that it deprives everything outside it of fuel and attention.
Build a fortress where nothing can exist within it without the strict permission of the owner and use aggressive tactics to build the foundation of that fortress.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-14 00:22:30 (dmy5oxj)
The thought of endless life times sounds tiresome to me
Not me. I am unstirred and unshaken by that notion.
Think about how mortals relate to time. To a mortal their body’s span of time is everything. That’s why mortals feel time pressure and this can be good and bad, because on one hand it can push them harder than otherwise, but on the other hand it creates a brittle mindset where if you cannot get some results in some rather short and limited time frame, and your time is almost up, you just give up and admit defeat. An immortal never admits defeat and “give up” is not even in their vocabulary. There is “rest” but not “give up.” There is “pause” or “change of plans” but never “give up.” An immortal with an 80 year old body is not thinking that “it’s almost over and I better tally up what I’ve done so far and hang my hat and get ready for the grave or an ash urn.”
Time is an illusion of the mind. Trillions of years pass like a flash of lightning. One breath takes trillions of years to complete. Trillions of years can be seen as a very short time and one breath can be an eternity. The length of one’s arm can be longer than the known universe or it can just be under 3 feet (or under 1 meter). Is the moon for away or is it right here? Is my body right here or is it far away? Conventionally-minded people believe there is only one correct way to answer such questions, but immortals know there is boundless freedom and thus they can answer any of these questions in any which way they want. And usually I imagine it would be in the most empowering, fun and exciting to them way if they want that, or if they want peace then in the most peaceful way. But the point is, the range of thought is what’s different. Mortals have a very narrow range of allowable (“sane”) thought and allowable attitudes and allowable feelings.
I think instead of “beginner’s mind” one needs to adopt an “immortal mind” and proceed from the end. How would an immortal and infinitely wise and powerful version of you look at your situation? Would that one be desperate and in a hurry, or would they suppress both existence and non-existence with just one gaze and one thought and then rest like one all-accomplishing lord? I don’t know. It’s up to you.
In my view it’s essential to give up human identity and change to a mental process of being an immortal or otherwise an adept of some sort. And then use that kind of process to achieve your spiritual goals. Even if you don’t know some details consciously, you know in principle you know them subconsciously because of the original omniscience. And then you know that whatever you may not yet know, invariably, without fail, axiomatically, you will come to know it in the best way possible, for that is your will. So there is a sense of competence and power here, because whether you know it consciously right now or not, you will know whatever you intend to know within a reasonable time frame, and your idea of what is “reasonable” doesn’t have to be the same as a mortal’s.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-14 14:16:27 (dmzc83y)
I think instead of “beginner’s mind” one needs to adopt an “immortal mind” and proceed from the end.
I think this is a good idea, essential even. The deification of one’s own mind. I will inevitably succeed, that is a fact. Even as I type this, success is already mine. So because I’m already inevitably going to achieve it, now the question for me becomes “what if I can achieve it right now?”.
In a way, it’s a sort of personal challenge. If I can achieve it within my set time frame, then it’s all win and zero loss. If I can achieve it right now, then why should I continue to put up with this bland sensory experience?
Deification theoretically takes an instant to achieve. In practice, it’s not like that unfortunately but if I can set the conditions for something as close to instant deification as possible, then I can achieve my final end state as soon as possible.
Sure it sounds really rushed and hurried and it is. You could even say this goal is very obviously the manifestation of a conventional mind still entrenched in physicalist ideas and notions. I’m not going to deny that I’m impatient, maybe that might change down the line but right now I’m very hungry and my prize is just out of reach. Hopefully I’ll have the prize before the impatience grows out of hand.
Of course, if I don’t get it, then it’s not the end of the road. My resolve will probably weaken and that’s where an immortal focused mindset will come in handy. And ultimately all this slogging and struggle to reach the pinnacle will eventually result in reaching that pinnacle, it won’t be any other way.
In my view it’s essential to give up human identity and change to a mental process of being an immortal or otherwise an adept of some sort.
Yeah overall this is a very useful idea to play around with and I think at the very minimum, it should be partially if not fully adopted, regardless of what your method is. It links nicely into the original comment about the “big ego”. Conventional perspectives aren’t useful in the long run.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-15 14:10:42 (dn11m5i)
So because I’m already inevitably going to achieve it, now the question for me becomes “what if I can achieve it right now?”
Then this for me becomes, “If such and such transformation happened right in front of my face, how would I feel about it? Could I accept it and live with it?”
That’s the one thing I’ve seen repeatedly in my life. When transformations pass a certain degree of subjective impressiveness, there is something in me that would reject them and basically not be OK with them. That “something” (a certain way of thinking and relating to experience, a certain way of expecting certain features from my experience, a habit of whatever is familiar, etc.) is softening up slowly and gradually. I feel like I am less tripped out by the “strange” than before, but it’s still a step from that to having the strange appear in your name and taking responsibility for it too, and then not going back to the habit of trying to resolve it from many different perspectives, because otherwise, it’s like there is still a memory of an old-style world in my mind and it’s as if none of this “new” stuff even happened in that old world and the old world perspectives have to accept the new stuff, which of course they cannot, so it cannot be. So letting go or loosening up around the old world (the world from one’s memories, how it used to be, which is how I knew that it used to be), and the entire external perspective game, is essential too.
And ultimately all this slogging and struggle to reach the pinnacle will eventually result in reaching that pinnacle, it won’t be any other way.
Even if such efforts do not immediately in themselves reach fruition, they create the necessary supporting conditions for further efforts which then would reach it. So nothing is ever wasted.
The only way to slow oneself down is to go on a tangent somewhere. But tangents can have their own advantages. It’s like taking a scenic route. It might not be the fastest, but you get to see more on the way and when you arrive, you have a bigger experienced context from your journey if you had taken a more scenic route.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-15 15:18:22 (dn13wjr)
Some thoughts on this:
The idea would be to get to that state as fast as possible. Whether it really ends up taking 1 year, 20 years, or 50 life times, you will always be able to get there in the fastest possible manner if you frame your perspective such that the desired “end state” is realistically within your grasp and not something that is “far far away”.
That’s why, when you are shedding your physicalist world views, you have to ideally jump at every opportunity to imply against that, by implying that your world is in fact dream-like (or whatever else a practitioner might be personally interested in). You already mentioned that with constant contemplation, meditation, etc.
But it always is important to frame your perspective so that your final state is easily within your grasp, because everything is essentially a reflection of what you think it is. So if you think that it will take multiple life times, it probably will. But if you think it is readily achievable in a single life time (and you have a planned out pathway to get there) then you probably will achieve it in this life time, hopefully.
I plan to jump from 0-100 straight away. So mostly from a tame, physicalist-like existence to an existence where complex psychic transformations are nothing but a drop in the wind. It sounds almost impossible and ridiculous but it’s 100% feasible imo, given enough practice and determination. If I don’t get it in this life time, then I failed.
Yes. Tolerance can curb any suffering that might result from magickal pursuits and expressiveness will nicely complement that of course. They are both absolutely crucial to maintaining a semblance of balance and control. Otherwise an overly eager practitioner could find themselves in a serious bind and their suffering might prevent them from ever getting out, that would be a devastating position to be in. Imagine visiting a hellish realm out of curiosity and being unable to get out because your panic is clouding your mind and locking you in place.
As for cultivating magick, my personal interpretation is that tolerance is first ramped up to maybe 60%-70%, so that “just being” becomes your default state. Then you flip the whole thing around, turn that 60%-70% tolerance to full blown 80%-90% expressiveness in an instant. Building up the tolerance is what takes the longest amount of time in this method, but once its become your default state, the hard work is mostly done and you’re ready to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-11 21:19:25 (dmunpde)
Because beliefs taken seriously tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies it’s important to be careful about what one believes.
That said, without meeting one’s present limitations in a sincere manner there is no hope of transforming them.
How to meet one’s temporary limitations without solidifying those limitations into a self-fulfilling prophecy is an art form. One could say I am a self-proclaimed master of that art form.
Resolve is important. The idea of many lifetimes should not be scary or arouse impatience. Even if what I seek is beyond the end of time itself, I will get there. Since that’s the level of my resolve, then it won’t take too long for me. But at the same time I will not trivialize it either but rather meet what’s happening in my mind with sincerity.
This kind of resolve is better than average but it’s not quite immortal diamond-like resolve. You shouldn’t care about time. One should focus on correctness instead of being in a hurry. Haste makes waste.
Neither hurrying nor tarrying, we advance in a manner that’s hard to calculate and understand for ordinary mortals.
That’s best left up to each individual imo. Your approach is pretty conservative. It’s really weird. You’re in such hurry but you adopt this very meek approach. I’m in no hurry at all and yet my approach is more aggressive. Like I said, everyone has to decide what they want.
I’ll tell you one thing. Yes, you can learn to be more graceful under pressure and this will prepare you for what’s to come, but there is also merit to banging your head against the wall before being fully prepared. One can then learn a thing or two from that experience that is hard to learn otherwise.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-12 10:14:31 (dmvow34)
Absolutely. Often times a practitioner isn’t even aware that they’re running in circles, it’s very common to see it in the spiritual community, people who think they’re making progress, but unfortunately they don’t realize that they’re just perpetuating their current situation endlessly.
Impatience is a thorn in the side, it’s very important to cultivate balance. The thought of endless life times sounds tiresome to me, you could say my resolve would be very weak by the time I get to these future life times, still existent but weak. I see it more as an emergency back up, a plan B.
Yep, something I’m working on. Trying to rush it is useless. But this is something I want right now and as long as I feel that way, it feels like it’s realistically achievable.
But then again, a physicalist existence is completely out of the question anyway. I’d rather die than go back to impenetrable physicalism, it’s not even remotely an option anymore so I have nothing else but to go as hard as I can at this, this is my sole goal in existence. Failure cannot be an option, even if it does end up taking multiple life times. Who knows even, I’ve probably already done multiple life times with this stuff anyway.
I guess it is fairly conservative. The thing I’ve found for myself, is that I find it hard to adapt to aggressive tactics, for whatever reason, it is a weakness of mine, it becomes like a war of attrition. There is a certain minimum requirement of aggressive tactics that are absolutely necessary to make any progress with s.idealism, so I stick to that minimum level and over compensate by building tolerance or resistance against intrusive patterns and aspects of existence.
Compared to aggressive tactics, it might appear meek but I wouldn’t call it meek so much as it’s like building an impenetrable fortress made up of titanium, a fortress so large and powerful that it deprives everything outside it of fuel and attention.
Build a fortress where nothing can exist within it without the strict permission of the owner and use aggressive tactics to build the foundation of that fortress.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-14 00:22:30 (dmy5oxj)
Not me. I am unstirred and unshaken by that notion.
Think about how mortals relate to time. To a mortal their body’s span of time is everything. That’s why mortals feel time pressure and this can be good and bad, because on one hand it can push them harder than otherwise, but on the other hand it creates a brittle mindset where if you cannot get some results in some rather short and limited time frame, and your time is almost up, you just give up and admit defeat. An immortal never admits defeat and “give up” is not even in their vocabulary. There is “rest” but not “give up.” There is “pause” or “change of plans” but never “give up.” An immortal with an 80 year old body is not thinking that “it’s almost over and I better tally up what I’ve done so far and hang my hat and get ready for the grave or an ash urn.”
Time is an illusion of the mind. Trillions of years pass like a flash of lightning. One breath takes trillions of years to complete. Trillions of years can be seen as a very short time and one breath can be an eternity. The length of one’s arm can be longer than the known universe or it can just be under 3 feet (or under 1 meter). Is the moon for away or is it right here? Is my body right here or is it far away? Conventionally-minded people believe there is only one correct way to answer such questions, but immortals know there is boundless freedom and thus they can answer any of these questions in any which way they want. And usually I imagine it would be in the most empowering, fun and exciting to them way if they want that, or if they want peace then in the most peaceful way. But the point is, the range of thought is what’s different. Mortals have a very narrow range of allowable (“sane”) thought and allowable attitudes and allowable feelings.
I think instead of “beginner’s mind” one needs to adopt an “immortal mind” and proceed from the end. How would an immortal and infinitely wise and powerful version of you look at your situation? Would that one be desperate and in a hurry, or would they suppress both existence and non-existence with just one gaze and one thought and then rest like one all-accomplishing lord? I don’t know. It’s up to you.
In my view it’s essential to give up human identity and change to a mental process of being an immortal or otherwise an adept of some sort. And then use that kind of process to achieve your spiritual goals. Even if you don’t know some details consciously, you know in principle you know them subconsciously because of the original omniscience. And then you know that whatever you may not yet know, invariably, without fail, axiomatically, you will come to know it in the best way possible, for that is your will. So there is a sense of competence and power here, because whether you know it consciously right now or not, you will know whatever you intend to know within a reasonable time frame, and your idea of what is “reasonable” doesn’t have to be the same as a mortal’s.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-14 14:16:27 (dmzc83y)
I think this is a good idea, essential even. The deification of one’s own mind. I will inevitably succeed, that is a fact. Even as I type this, success is already mine. So because I’m already inevitably going to achieve it, now the question for me becomes “what if I can achieve it right now?”.
In a way, it’s a sort of personal challenge. If I can achieve it within my set time frame, then it’s all win and zero loss. If I can achieve it right now, then why should I continue to put up with this bland sensory experience?
Deification theoretically takes an instant to achieve. In practice, it’s not like that unfortunately but if I can set the conditions for something as close to instant deification as possible, then I can achieve my final end state as soon as possible.
Sure it sounds really rushed and hurried and it is. You could even say this goal is very obviously the manifestation of a conventional mind still entrenched in physicalist ideas and notions. I’m not going to deny that I’m impatient, maybe that might change down the line but right now I’m very hungry and my prize is just out of reach. Hopefully I’ll have the prize before the impatience grows out of hand.
Of course, if I don’t get it, then it’s not the end of the road. My resolve will probably weaken and that’s where an immortal focused mindset will come in handy. And ultimately all this slogging and struggle to reach the pinnacle will eventually result in reaching that pinnacle, it won’t be any other way.
Yeah overall this is a very useful idea to play around with and I think at the very minimum, it should be partially if not fully adopted, regardless of what your method is. It links nicely into the original comment about the “big ego”. Conventional perspectives aren’t useful in the long run.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-09-15 14:10:42 (dn11m5i)
Then this for me becomes, “If such and such transformation happened right in front of my face, how would I feel about it? Could I accept it and live with it?”
That’s the one thing I’ve seen repeatedly in my life. When transformations pass a certain degree of subjective impressiveness, there is something in me that would reject them and basically not be OK with them. That “something” (a certain way of thinking and relating to experience, a certain way of expecting certain features from my experience, a habit of whatever is familiar, etc.) is softening up slowly and gradually. I feel like I am less tripped out by the “strange” than before, but it’s still a step from that to having the strange appear in your name and taking responsibility for it too, and then not going back to the habit of trying to resolve it from many different perspectives, because otherwise, it’s like there is still a memory of an old-style world in my mind and it’s as if none of this “new” stuff even happened in that old world and the old world perspectives have to accept the new stuff, which of course they cannot, so it cannot be. So letting go or loosening up around the old world (the world from one’s memories, how it used to be, which is how I knew that it used to be), and the entire external perspective game, is essential too.
Even if such efforts do not immediately in themselves reach fruition, they create the necessary supporting conditions for further efforts which then would reach it. So nothing is ever wasted.
The only way to slow oneself down is to go on a tangent somewhere. But tangents can have their own advantages. It’s like taking a scenic route. It might not be the fastest, but you get to see more on the way and when you arrive, you have a bigger experienced context from your journey if you had taken a more scenic route.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-09-15 15:18:22 (dn13wjr)
Originally commented by u/ on 2023-06-29 12:54:45.812068 (_)