Recently I’ve been wrestling with the concept of Self and making little headway. I’m hoping that by writing this out I’ll generate some insights – but apologies in advance if there’s rambling along the way. I’m not sure quite where this is headed yet.

I’ll start with an experience I had recently. Years ago I used to suffer from sleep paralysis regularly. I say “suffer” because, back then, I didn’t understand SP, or realise it could be used to generate lucid dreams. I wasn’t frightened – just found it deeply uncomfortable.

Cut forward several years and I became interested in LDs and learnt about the connection between SP and LDs. For a while it was great. SP still hit me spontaneously and I could also purposely induce it and, from there, slip into LDs. Gradually, though, SP became harder and harder to produce – and eventually impossible.

This process started with an increase in false awakenings during LDs. I’d be in the midst of an LD and undergo a false awakening which would end my lucidity. It felt like my mind was literally kicking me out of LDs, as though it/I disapproved of them on some level.

For a while I could almost induce SP; I’d start to experience vibrations and auditory phenomena, but they’d peter out to nothing. For years now I haven’t been able to get even to that stage, either intentionally or unintentionally. I still have semi-lucid dreams on occasion, but they occur randomly, not through any agency on my part. I’ve wondered occasionally why this change should have come about but never gave it too much thought. While I welcome LDs, and while they’ve helped to shape my interpretation of reality, they’ve never been my end goal, so I wasn’t too concerned.

Cut to a fortnight ago. For the first time in a long time I’m on the verge of a spontaneous SP and I use all my old tricks to encourage it along. But the vibrations fade to nothing and I suddenly realise that it’s my fault. There’s an unpleasant sensation associated with the SP this time, which I think can best be described as something like descent. In the past, SP may have been accompanied by an initial feeling of physical heaviness, but there was also a sense of mental lightness – like a part of me was lifting up or being vibrated outwards. This time the feeling of mental heaviness was oppressive.

I’ve never undergone full anaesthesia before, but I think the sensation I was experiencing must be similar, though more unpleasantly drawn out. It was like being unwillingly dragged towards oblivion and a loss of self-awareness. Quite unlike gently drifting into sleep/dreams - or being hurled into them, which is how SP>>LD usually feels to me.

Anyway – even as I was trying to encourage the SP I was simultaneously fighting it because of the dragging sensation, which effectively killed the SP.

So now I’ve been more intensively contemplating this experience, along with the general decline of SP in my life, and it occurs to me that it might all be connected to some of the problems I’ve been wrestling with regarding what Self is.

I know that in this sub /u/mindseal has previously defined mind as a threefold capacity to know, will and experience, which I wouldn’t dispute.

But for me there’s a gap, in that I can’t express how a concept of self in the form of consistent (or inconsistent) personality or character fits into this model.

I suppose what I’m driving at is - in order for the mind to will anything, there has to be an impulse or desire “behind” that will. To attempt a metaphor, if will is a gun, there still has to be a someone who decides what to point it at and when to shoot.

So who is that? How “real” am I/that person? Am I just a habit, like the laws of physics, or am I more intrinsic and essential? How enduring am “I”? How inconstant?

These questions strike me as vital if a person pursues subjective idealism with a view to effecting change. I’ve experienced dreams where this entire lifetime of experiences has been wiped from my memory. I find those dreams disconcerting – but I’d argue that even in those dreams I retain core properties which persist even in the absence of memories of this lifetime. My moral code, my sense of humour, my emotional reactions and – sorry, things are about to get fluffy but I lack words to adequately describe this - a sort of observing self-aware knowingness which seems to sit permanently at the back of my mind. I also feel like these qualities have been with me in this lifetime for as far back as I can remember.

I’m not saying that I haven’t been altered at all by this life, but I think that those properties have, by and large, been central to my existence - to what I will, to how I interpret experience - and they have not changed substantially. Sometimes, as an intellectual exercise, I’ve sat down, played devil’s advocate with myself, and tried to change them, with no success.

But how does any of this connect to the decline of SP/LD in my life? I think the connection lies in my attachment to my concept of my self/my personality, to the me behind the scenes who Knows, Wills and Experiences – and a fear of losing that self.

This may seem counterintuitive. If anything, you are surely more likely to lose sight of yourself in non-lucid dreams. Except that non-lucid dreams perhaps present less of a challenge to a physicalist mindset. And I’ve recently realised that I may be erroneously attaching my concept of Self/personality to the waking world and its qualities. In other words, I’ve been mentally attaching my personality to the physicalist experience, even though I wouldn’t actually describe myself as a physicalist.

So – if I lucid dream, and if I turn the laws of physics/nature as they appear in the waking world on their head, it’s an indication that this world isn’t real/doesn’t have an immutable existence separate to me.

Well… we all know that. That’s why we’re here, right? But it’s quite one thing to know this and another altogether to really live it.

So what if lucid dreams really force me up against subjective idealism and I feel, by extension, that the Self I identify with is similarly mutable and substanceless? What if, by pursuing this path, I lose my self? I’m not saying I won’t exist – I am emphatically not one of those “there is no self” types. But perhaps I will become changed beyond recognition, just as I hope to change the world beyond recognition.

This is the roadblock I’ve been hitting and, now that I’ve typed it out in black and white, I think it’s wrong-headed. Evidently I like my personality as is (which, hey, is a bonus nice realisation) and I’m not keen on drastic alteration of my self. But I’ve been erroneously linking my self to the “outer” world instead of linking it to… my self.

And I think that the dragging/oblivion feeling I experienced in that aborted SP was a manifestation of that fear, just as the decline in SP/LDing in my life is probably a result of that fear. And I also suspect my regular dreams have been less rich, less far reaching for the same reason – I’ve unconsciously been keeping this grip on a world which, by and large, I detest.

So. Evidently I’ve identified a fear in myself of mental drifting and losing sight of the me who I feel that I am. And to counteract that I’ve been anchoring myself to this substandard existence. What I should have been doing was making my self my anchor – because then the world experience is less important and can flow/change more readily.

And perhaps in the end it doesn’t matter how mutable or permanent your personality/self can be, but how mutable you want it to be.

  • @syncretikOPM
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    11 year ago

    (page 1)

    In my life I have found that it’s important to figure out how and when to be serious and how and when to be playful. A “normal” mentality is extremely serious about convention and what we would call “physical” appearances, and is unserious just about anything else that isn’t either directly those two, or indirectly tightly connected to them. I’ve benefited by replacing most of this kind of seriousness with playfulness, or to phrase it another way, I’ve dialled down this kind of seriousness.

    On the other hand I’ve dialled up my seriousness with regard to what by convention may be considered fantastical or impossible, I’ve dialled up my seriousness with regard to my intentionality, and other such things.

    That said, this is still an area I have to manage, because if I am dialling up I may overdial at times and have to somewhat dial back down. If I am dialling down I may need to dial it up a tad if I overdial.

    So my impression of what you’re saying is that you’re taking your lucid dreaming practice a tad too seriously. It’s good to take such practices as LDing seriously, but there comes a point when it becomes so serious that it becomes like a job or a chore and all the pleasure starts leaking out and then in the long term it is no longer something you can’t wait to do. You may start to feel like you’re forcing yourself to do it, and you might get frustrated and give up.

    Although I’ve experienced sleep paralysis a few times, I’ve attached zero importance to it on my end, and plus, I’ve had many, many lucid dreams and relatively consistently too, but never through sleep paralysis. I’ve yet to convert even one SP episode into an LD, and I don’t feel like I am missing anything either. For me SP’s are super rare. Like once every few years rare, but they’re not evenly distributed. On some years I might have a month with 5 of them in a row, and then 5 years with no SPs after that. Or something like that. To me SPs are neither scary nor uncomfortable nor good nor bad nor anything. They’re orthogonal to anything else I am doing and I don’t pay much attention to them. If I had a lot of SPs, I’d then look into converting them. But if my SPs stopped showing up, well fine, then one vector of LDing has vanished, and that’s OK. LDing has many vectors, many entry points. One of those entry points going away is not the end of the world. In a way you’ve benefited, because you never liked SPs all that much and by using them for LDing they went away.

    Imagine a situation where someone has nightmares, which are naturally loathsome, but that person learns how to recognize dreaming via a consistent nightmare pattern and learns to become lucid every time a nightmare hits, but then the nightmares stop. Isn’t that good, at least in some ways? The LDing practice has undone the psychic knot that was causing the nightmares, so why not let those go? LDing doesn’t require nightmares, but nightmares can be used as dream signs to cause oneself to recognize dream state. So what if this vector goes away? What’s wrong with not having nightmares?

    I see SPs in the same light. If you have them, fine, use them. If not, fine, use something else.

    I’ve hardly had SPs and I’ve mostly used MILD for LD-ing. Once upon time I detected that I was having a very good mind weather one night and I tried WILD and succeeded. It was awesome, but it didn’t make me want to do WILD every night either. If I ever detect good WILD-compatible mind weather again, I might do another WILD. I just don’t get obsessed about any technique. If I want to LD, I’ll find a way. I always do. That’s my attitude. If I cannot go through the door, I can go through the window. If not the window, the chimney. If not the chimney, I’ll go through the basement. If I cannot enter through the basement, I’ll enter through the wall. I’ll find a way and it doesn’t have to be a specific way. That’s my attitude.

    Now I’ll say something about the more philosophical stuff you’ve said, on page 2.

    I’ll proofread these in a bit, so these replies will contain fewer typos and such in about 10-20 minutes.

    Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2018-04-10 13:14:09 (dx3x8p6)

    • @syncretikOPM
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      11 year ago

      I think the way I wrote this post made me sound much more fixated on LD/SP than I am - my bad.

      I welcome both when they come and, as I said, I find them instructive. But I see them as a tool, not what I’m ultimately trying to achieve, so when both mostly disappeared from my life, I didn’t give it too much thought, though I certainly welcomed them when they DID reappear from time to time.

      It didn’t occur to me until recently, though, that their disappearance might be symptomatic of a block/wrong-thinking in my practice that I hadn’t even been aware of - and which, more importantly, might have wider implications.

      So it’s the block itself I’m more concerned with, rather than the SP/LD.

      Quick side note on SP - I certainly used to dislike it but this was because I didn’t understand how to physically manage it. Once I realised my autonomic system was delivering more than enough oxygen without me interfering with depth/pace of breathing, it became an interesting experience in its own right, rather than just a gateway to LD. SP for me is accompanied with astral projection-like sensations (not quite true astral projection, which I’ve always sucked at) and a few experiences that sound close to what people experience on low dose DMT.

      I’m impressed you’re able to LD via MILD - that is the one technique which has consistently not worked for me. In my mind it’s definitely classified under “tricky.” WILD I generally have success with, but haven’t tried it for a while.

      Out of interest, do you tend to LD or try to LD much?

      I actually think you have hit on one of the reasons I didn’t care much when I stopped experiencing regular LDs. It wasn’t so much that inducing them was too much like hard work - I think that once I was in them, though, the LDs themselves were becoming too much like hard work, and not nearly enough about play/enjoyment. So I’ll try to remember that next time I’m in one and… manifest a wall of chocolate or something.

      Originally commented by u/BraverNewerWorld on 2018-04-18 15:12:44 (dxjxuz9)

      • @syncretikOPM
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        11 year ago

        it became an interesting experience in its own right, rather than just a gateway to LD

        I see. In that case, yea. If you’re interested in SP specifically for its own sake, you might have to learn how to induce it. I’ve induced a state of sleep paralysis deliberately like maybe once or twice or three times, so I didn’t get into it all that deep.

        I thought you wanted to use SP to induce an LD.

        I’m impressed you’re able to LD via MILD - that is the one technique which has consistently not worked for me. In my mind it’s definitely classified under “tricky.” WILD I generally have success with, but haven’t tried it for a while.

        Interesting. I’ve always thought MILD is for the newbs and WILD is for the experts. LOL WILD so far has just been waaaaay too challenging for me. I even surprised myself that one time I succeeded at WILDing (that actually happened fairly recently). I consider myself fairly advanced once I find myself inside a dream and lucid, but WILDing into an LD from being awake is not my strong point at the moment.

        Out of interest, do you tend to LD or try to LD much?

        In the past, yes. In recent years, no. The reason for this is because I had extremely intense questions that I intuitively felt were going to be answered through the practice of lucid dreaming. So I was extremely motivated to attain lucidity and I had attained it in relatively short order and then I split my time between having fun and seeking answers to my questions. After messing around with that state I pretty much settled all my questions from back then. That’s why my motivation for LDing dropped. I still occasionally LD.

        My main interest shifted into two areas: waking experience and the between-waking-and-dreaming experience. I like to fool around with these two. However, if I am fooling around with the liminal state of being between waking and dreaming, I don’t aim for sleep paralysis. I just let my mind wonder without completely letting go of consciousness, and I get into these short visions and interesting experiences. It’s very much like eyelid gazing while lying in bed. So I don’t think about attaining full paralysis. I might have a very interesting dream vision really briefly, for 2 seconds, but I know I can move my arms and legs if I want to. I don’t need to knock out my body per se, at least, not for what I am doing right now. Although if my body did get into an SP, that would be fine as well, then I can try WILDing again.

        I actually think you have hit on one of the reasons I didn’t care much when I stopped experiencing regular LDs. It wasn’t so much that inducing them was too much like hard work - I think that once I was in them, though, the LDs themselves were becoming too much like hard work, and not nearly enough about play/enjoyment. So I’ll try to remember that next time I’m in one and… manifest a wall of chocolate or something.

        Yea, it’s important to have fun. :) Otherwise one is tempting a burn out. I always do it like that. That’s why even when I had a serious interest and serious big questions, I still made sure I had fun at least 50% of the time, lol. So I got plenty of flight time and other such things. :) Also, once my interest shifted, I don’t become upset and I don’t think I am worth less now because I don’t LD as much as before. LD-ing is a powerful tool, but whether or not we’re living good lives is not predicated on LD-ing 3 times a week or some such. That’s too close to a gym rat mentality for me. Also, it’s possible to study and benefit from subjective idealism without LD-ing at all. And, if LD-ing was a “must” then it would not be empowering. It’s only empowering if it’s a choice. These are some of the reasons why I respect lucid dreaming and I am eternally grateful for having learned and had lucid dreams and will gladly still have them on occasion, but I don’t obsess about them either. If I have an intense need and only lucid dreams can answer that need, I know I will be able to have plenty of LDs. Until such time, I focus on other things.

        Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2018-04-20 03:26:20 (dxmw6lf)