The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That’s how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
Considering how far to the right America is, I’m gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we’re facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
The point of the shame is that they’re refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of “I’m not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!” and need to be fucking shamed. It’s lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I’ve seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won’t move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he’s just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn’t vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between “Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state” and “Democracy, but socialist” is smaller than “Democracy, but socialist” and “Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians”
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we’re already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that’s why the Democrats ran on a platform of “nothing will fundamentally change.” A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Most likely, yes! That’s a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There’s legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That’s how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
Considering how far to the right America is, I’m gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we’re facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The point of the shame is that they’re refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of “I’m not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!” and need to be fucking shamed. It’s lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
I agree.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I’ve seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won’t move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he’s just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn’t vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between “Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state” and “Democracy, but socialist” is smaller than “Democracy, but socialist” and “Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians”
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we’re already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that’s why the Democrats ran on a platform of “nothing will fundamentally change.” A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Then I think we’re in agreement, just expressing it differently.
Most likely, yes! That’s a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There’s legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.