There is no place I know of trying to keep this tally but this is where I got the number from. I see looking at this now that it appears out of date despite recent edits and includes only the humanitarian route airstrikes, not refugee camps; there are less than 100 dead in strikes on the humanitarian corridors, according this:
Indeed though, my original claim here was not completely accurate so thanks for making me flesh it out. The number of people killed at refugee camps is much higher last I checked this page, and seems to be in the range of like 500 to 600:
One such strike killed 50 civilians that were packed into a mosque and forced to stay there by Hamas, as apparently 40-odd members of Hamas held some sort of command meeting in an underground bunker. The airstrike killed a Hamas commander responsible for multiple terror attacks back to 2004, numerous rocket attacks, and the October 7 attack.
IDF says it used a bunker buster to target the underground bunker and that subsequently the bunker and connecting tunnels collapsed along with the adjacent apartment building. IDF says that minutes before the air strike, residents of the buildings near the site were warned to leave the area.
This strike has been widely reported as being part of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign against civilians. Palestinian Health authority, which is very credible with death reporting, says 50 civilians were killed. Hamas, which has zero credibility, says 400 civilians were killed.
This is one of the allegations in South Africa’s complaint that is repeated approximately a dozen times times in different sections for different reasons. For example, it is cited as an example of Israel telling people of Gaza to evacuate southward and then bombing a target in the south. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing refugees as they evacuated, that would obviously be a war crime. It is cited as evidence that the IDF is targeting civilian homes. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing homes in order to destroy the places where people live, that would obviously also be evidence of a war crime.
However, if it is true that: Israel was targeting an active Hamas leadership operation and part of Hamas’s massive underground military base, the strike killed a veteran Hamas commander, killed 40 other Hamas militants, people in the nearby buildings were warned before the bombs fell, and that Israel used ordinance designed to limit surface destruction while taking out underground military targets, than it literally cannot be called “indiscriminate.” Seems like it was very well planned and executed, narrowly tailored, and launched in a way to minimize civilian casualties. Again, Hamas put the civilians in the buildings, put the tunnel under the building, conducted terrorist operations from under the buildings, and then when Israel justifiably destroyed the tunnels and killed the terrorists occupying them, the structure above collapsed.
Again, this is Hamas’s strategy. They turned the foundation of the an entire city into Swiss cheese and then launched a war from it. As the tunnels get destroyed, the entire area becomes unstable. This is one reason why in my country you must obtain a building permit and structural engineering report before digging tunnels. Hamas’s strategy is to maximize civilian casualties in order to gain sympathy. Nevermind that on October 7 Hamas militants literally went to a concert, restaurants, and public streets and just fired indiscriminately on women and children and families as they drove to dinner or listened to a show.
I agree there must be a balancing between likely civilian casualties and military advantage. If the circumstances of this attack are as I’ve described them, do you agree that Israel’s strike was morally justified? I do.
No, I don’t agree. In the Jabalia refugee camp massacre alone, 195+ people died and they have many missing under the rubble. That one is on Wikipedia. A large chunk was children.
I didn’t even need to Google that one, it was still fresh in my memory and I knew more than 100 alone died just there sheltering.
Here is a Guardian report about it:
The 22,835 dead represent about one in a hundred of Gaza’s total population. They have been killed at a rate of just under 250 a day (an average that has come down a bit in the last few weeks). It is not known exactly how many of those killed were combatants, but Israel’s own ratio would suggest that on average, more than 160 civilians have died each day.
Of course this number is now too small. They are 25k+ as of yesterday.
Even with Israel’s generous estimate to pretend to make it proportional, they are still killing more people than anyone else has done in modern history per day.
The number of dead people will likely skyrocket soon as many experts warn due to the 7k+ under the rubble (who are likely dead since a long time) and tens of thousands more will be dying to preventable diseases and famine.
Even the appointment of safe zones impossible and dangerous to get to with no fuel or busses or transportation is in itself a war crime. Just look at what MSF are saying:
Despite Israeli announcements suggesting that there are safe areas for the population trapped in the Gaza Strip, they are in fact exposed to bombardment throughout all the territory, including in the south, where tens of thousands of people have fled following the ultimatum.
There is no place I know of trying to keep this tally but this is where I got the number from. I see looking at this now that it appears out of date despite recent edits and includes only the humanitarian route airstrikes, not refugee camps; there are less than 100 dead in strikes on the humanitarian corridors, according this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuating_Gaza_City
Indeed though, my original claim here was not completely accurate so thanks for making me flesh it out. The number of people killed at refugee camps is much higher last I checked this page, and seems to be in the range of like 500 to 600:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
One such strike killed 50 civilians that were packed into a mosque and forced to stay there by Hamas, as apparently 40-odd members of Hamas held some sort of command meeting in an underground bunker. The airstrike killed a Hamas commander responsible for multiple terror attacks back to 2004, numerous rocket attacks, and the October 7 attack.
IDF says it used a bunker buster to target the underground bunker and that subsequently the bunker and connecting tunnels collapsed along with the adjacent apartment building. IDF says that minutes before the air strike, residents of the buildings near the site were warned to leave the area.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1enracf6
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1719469821207752998?lang=en
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-it-fires-israeli-troops-pressing-gaza-ground-assault-2023-10-31/
This strike has been widely reported as being part of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign against civilians. Palestinian Health authority, which is very credible with death reporting, says 50 civilians were killed. Hamas, which has zero credibility, says 400 civilians were killed.
This is one of the allegations in South Africa’s complaint that is repeated approximately a dozen times times in different sections for different reasons. For example, it is cited as an example of Israel telling people of Gaza to evacuate southward and then bombing a target in the south. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing refugees as they evacuated, that would obviously be a war crime. It is cited as evidence that the IDF is targeting civilian homes. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing homes in order to destroy the places where people live, that would obviously also be evidence of a war crime.
However, if it is true that: Israel was targeting an active Hamas leadership operation and part of Hamas’s massive underground military base, the strike killed a veteran Hamas commander, killed 40 other Hamas militants, people in the nearby buildings were warned before the bombs fell, and that Israel used ordinance designed to limit surface destruction while taking out underground military targets, than it literally cannot be called “indiscriminate.” Seems like it was very well planned and executed, narrowly tailored, and launched in a way to minimize civilian casualties. Again, Hamas put the civilians in the buildings, put the tunnel under the building, conducted terrorist operations from under the buildings, and then when Israel justifiably destroyed the tunnels and killed the terrorists occupying them, the structure above collapsed.
Again, this is Hamas’s strategy. They turned the foundation of the an entire city into Swiss cheese and then launched a war from it. As the tunnels get destroyed, the entire area becomes unstable. This is one reason why in my country you must obtain a building permit and structural engineering report before digging tunnels. Hamas’s strategy is to maximize civilian casualties in order to gain sympathy. Nevermind that on October 7 Hamas militants literally went to a concert, restaurants, and public streets and just fired indiscriminately on women and children and families as they drove to dinner or listened to a show.
I agree there must be a balancing between likely civilian casualties and military advantage. If the circumstances of this attack are as I’ve described them, do you agree that Israel’s strike was morally justified? I do.
No, I don’t agree. In the Jabalia refugee camp massacre alone, 195+ people died and they have many missing under the rubble. That one is on Wikipedia. A large chunk was children.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_October_2023_Jabalia_refugee_camp_airstrike
I didn’t even need to Google that one, it was still fresh in my memory and I knew more than 100 alone died just there sheltering.
Here is a Guardian report about it:
Of course this number is now too small. They are 25k+ as of yesterday.
Even with Israel’s generous estimate to pretend to make it proportional, they are still killing more people than anyone else has done in modern history per day.
The number of dead people will likely skyrocket soon as many experts warn due to the 7k+ under the rubble (who are likely dead since a long time) and tens of thousands more will be dying to preventable diseases and famine.
Even the appointment of safe zones impossible and dangerous to get to with no fuel or busses or transportation is in itself a war crime. Just look at what MSF are saying:
https://www.msf.org/msf-calls-israeli-authorities-show-humanity
Here is one of the many many reports showing that the idea of safe zones in Gaza was a cruel lie: https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231220-how-the-israeli-military-is-bombing-areas-it-declares-safe-in-southern-gaza