I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse. But to be falling off by half within four months? Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge? The IDF still texts people before they bomb if they know there are civilians around, look it up.
But more importantly, they aren’t bombing indiscriminately. In my understanding: they are bombing legit targets, the tunnels and members of Hamas, and Hamas uses human shields and sympathy from high civilian casualties (martyrdom) as a weapon. Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties? I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous. Hamas members are honored to cram their entire extended family into an apartment right above their nearest tunnel shaft and have them all die as martyrs while their phones buzz with unread emergency broadcasts.
1.2 million people evacuated safely, a massive forced evacuation. That fact alone makes it reasonably suspect. I get where the allegations are coming from. On balance, I find Israel’s response to be proportionate (destroying the enemy’s attack capability (the tunnels)), and evacuations are necessary to achieve that purpose.
This war is unique, the tunnels are unprecedented in all of human history. The willingness to use human shields is not entirely unprecedented, but the tunnels, hiding military infrastructure under hospitals and schools, under apartment complexes, under colleges, makes it unprecedented in its atrocity. October 7 was the last straw. Hamas has to go. The tunnels have to go and the city rebuilt from scratch.
I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse.
Ok great! I’m glad that you see that genocide doesn’t have to be so obvious/text book to count as a genocide.
I think I will end the conversation here but I will still respond to some points you made.
But to be falling off by half within four months?
Did you know that in the first month of the conflict Israel killed as many civilians as Russia had in the first 600 days of war? It’s easy to cut by half when it’s so high to start with. Half is still too much.
Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge?
Text them! Haven’t they cut off electricity and fuel to Gaza? What are they going to read it on it they can’t power their phone? In any case, this is the same as before: Israel is not stupid, they know it looks better politically if you give “warning” even if people could never see it and wouldn’t believe you anyway.
Hamas uses human shields
There is actually very little evidence of that. The tunnels are under all of Gaza, and Gaza is a tiny place nobody (apart from Hamas I guess?) can leave. Surely every building has a tunnel under or near it. So does that mean every building is fair game?
Imagine Al Shifa hospital actually did have the command centre under it. The tunnels can be over 10 m down or more. How many bombs do you have to drop on the hospital building and the actual solid concrete ground to reach 10 m down? Using that approach to get there is insane. Especially if it means killing the sick, injured, pregnant and god knows what inside the hospital. How can that be proportionate? Just send some elite soldiers into the tunnel.
Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties?
I find it hard to blame anyone but the bomb droppers. If I held your mother in front of me as a shield would you really think it’s ok to kill her in order to kill me? What if it was two people’s mothers? Etc. Surely you see the issue here.
I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous.
Well this is a good place to leave it. It is horrendous. I want it to stop before the number gets much higher, and especially before people start to starve to death. Israel defending this by saying “but Hamas…” doesn’t really cut it for me.
I see your points and mostly agree. I’m not trying to be obtuse. But to be falling off by half within four months? Also, why text people and tell them to evacuate? Wouldn’t that provide the same subterfuge? The IDF still texts people before they bomb if they know there are civilians around, look it up.
But more importantly, they aren’t bombing indiscriminately. In my understanding: they are bombing legit targets, the tunnels and members of Hamas, and Hamas uses human shields and sympathy from high civilian casualties (martyrdom) as a weapon. Aren’t they the superceding cause of the civilian casualties? I agree, 30,000 dead is horrendous. Hamas members are honored to cram their entire extended family into an apartment right above their nearest tunnel shaft and have them all die as martyrs while their phones buzz with unread emergency broadcasts.
1.2 million people evacuated safely, a massive forced evacuation. That fact alone makes it reasonably suspect. I get where the allegations are coming from. On balance, I find Israel’s response to be proportionate (destroying the enemy’s attack capability (the tunnels)), and evacuations are necessary to achieve that purpose.
This war is unique, the tunnels are unprecedented in all of human history. The willingness to use human shields is not entirely unprecedented, but the tunnels, hiding military infrastructure under hospitals and schools, under apartment complexes, under colleges, makes it unprecedented in its atrocity. October 7 was the last straw. Hamas has to go. The tunnels have to go and the city rebuilt from scratch.
Ok great! I’m glad that you see that genocide doesn’t have to be so obvious/text book to count as a genocide.
I think I will end the conversation here but I will still respond to some points you made.
Did you know that in the first month of the conflict Israel killed as many civilians as Russia had in the first 600 days of war? It’s easy to cut by half when it’s so high to start with. Half is still too much.
Text them! Haven’t they cut off electricity and fuel to Gaza? What are they going to read it on it they can’t power their phone? In any case, this is the same as before: Israel is not stupid, they know it looks better politically if you give “warning” even if people could never see it and wouldn’t believe you anyway.
There is actually very little evidence of that. The tunnels are under all of Gaza, and Gaza is a tiny place nobody (apart from Hamas I guess?) can leave. Surely every building has a tunnel under or near it. So does that mean every building is fair game?
Imagine Al Shifa hospital actually did have the command centre under it. The tunnels can be over 10 m down or more. How many bombs do you have to drop on the hospital building and the actual solid concrete ground to reach 10 m down? Using that approach to get there is insane. Especially if it means killing the sick, injured, pregnant and god knows what inside the hospital. How can that be proportionate? Just send some elite soldiers into the tunnel.
I find it hard to blame anyone but the bomb droppers. If I held your mother in front of me as a shield would you really think it’s ok to kill her in order to kill me? What if it was two people’s mothers? Etc. Surely you see the issue here.
Well this is a good place to leave it. It is horrendous. I want it to stop before the number gets much higher, and especially before people start to starve to death. Israel defending this by saying “but Hamas…” doesn’t really cut it for me.