And what did Marx think about voting for the lesser evil:
Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.
I will be no party to it and that will make little difference. You will take large part and bravely march to the polls, and that also will make no difference. Stop running Russia and giving Chinese advice when we cannot rule ourselves decently. Stop yelling about a democracy we do not have. Democracy is dead in the United States. Yet there is still nothing to replace real democracy. Drop the chains, then, that bind our brains. Drive the money-changers from the seats of the Cabinet and the halls of Congress. Call back some faint spirit of Jefferson and Lincoln,and when again we can hold a fair election on real issues, let’s vote, and not till then. Is this impossible? Then democracy in America is impossible.
That’s a very poignant piece, and it was my motivation back in 2000 when I refused to vote for Bush or Gore. It was also before I knew anything else about Du Bois and the context in which he wrote that piece, and it certainly wasn’t when a guy like Trump was running.
I mean, in the greater sense yes. I was one of countless apathetic or cynical people who could have actually voted and possibly made a difference. People have been reposting and miscontextualizing this Du Bois bit since the 50’s, trying to trick people who think their smart into feeling good about not voting. They do this because they know it works.
He was a 90 something year old black man when he wrote this piece in 1956. Compared to the things he lived through earlier in his life, the stakes in 56 were a little less urgent. Likewise the stakes he lived through in 56 weren’t as urgent as the stakes this year.
He also wrote it in the hopes that voter apathy would send a message. He was right… but not how he hoped. It sent a message that spreading voter apathy was a better tactic than changing policy. Again, there’s a reason why this piece is trotted out every four years.
Most people are trying to bring in social programs, not communism. The Democrats can do social programs, and they can do them better when we move the Overton window left by continually voting in Democrats
Oh, I’ll just have to wait. The overton window isn’t going to move to the left. It’s already so far to the right that the “left” party supports genocide.
You missed the last 23 years. Gore in office would have been dramatically different than Bush. Obama gave healthcare, no way the Republicans would have done that. Trump literally tried a coup. But you want to say ‘both sides same’ lol. You missed the last 23 years.
You think trying to overturn Chevon precedent is both sides the same? Overturning EPA decision making ability? Basic rules and regulations? You know all these things that hand in hand with companies and free market? Taxes both personal and corporate. No they are not the same lol. Not to mention that you are trying to artificially limit this to capitalism as if elections are limited to that, which you are still wrong about. Sorry to say at this point you are wilfully ignorant and bad faith, I’m not going to waste any more breath.
Marx and Engels had proportional representation to work with instead of first past the post. This is exactly why the US needs proportional representation, at least for congress, to break the de-facto two party system.
That doesn’t prevent the workers from forming their own party and promoting their own candidates. Circumstances in every country will always be different.
I consider China “state capitalism” (I don’t think the workers even own the means of production). Certainly not the kind of authoritarian “Marxism” I’d want anyway.
I skimmed through the article, and it makes a lot of mentions of Germany and France, so I’m guessing it didn’t work out to well in those countries.
I don’t think anyone really wants authoritarian Marxism, but they established a legacy that is still studied today. It would be interesting to know what they thought of the movement today.
And what did Marx think about voting for the lesser evil:
Karl Marx and Frederick Engels Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League, London, March 1850
Trump and his cult will be a little more than “a few reactionaries in the representative body”.
And Marx is talking about Parliamentary systems here, which may color the analysis.
Maybe an American opinion:
-Why I Won’t Vote: W.E.B. Du Bois
That’s a very poignant piece, and it was my motivation back in 2000 when I refused to vote for Bush or Gore. It was also before I knew anything else about Du Bois and the context in which he wrote that piece, and it certainly wasn’t when a guy like Trump was running.
So, you’re the reason Gore lost? /s
I mean, in the greater sense yes. I was one of countless apathetic or cynical people who could have actually voted and possibly made a difference. People have been reposting and miscontextualizing this Du Bois bit since the 50’s, trying to trick people who think their smart into feeling good about not voting. They do this because they know it works.
What is out of context?
He was a 90 something year old black man when he wrote this piece in 1956. Compared to the things he lived through earlier in his life, the stakes in 56 were a little less urgent. Likewise the stakes he lived through in 56 weren’t as urgent as the stakes this year.
He also wrote it in the hopes that voter apathy would send a message. He was right… but not how he hoped. It sent a message that spreading voter apathy was a better tactic than changing policy. Again, there’s a reason why this piece is trotted out every four years.
lovely
bravo
just perfect
would that we could hear it in his own voice
Parliamentary is still FPTP for members of parliament.
Most people are trying to bring in social programs, not communism. The Democrats can do social programs, and they can do them better when we move the Overton window left by continually voting in Democrats
But won’t.
Obamacare. Try voting and moving the Overton window and they can do more.
I do vote. The window keeps moving to the right. To the point where a handout to the insurance industry is considered a social program.
Just think about how much worse it could be.
Oh, I’ll just have to wait. The overton window isn’t going to move to the left. It’s already so far to the right that the “left” party supports genocide.
Do you honestly think it hasn’t moved right because Trump won? Now think what will happen if he wins again.
Ps you’re what the meme is about. Except the meme is wrong, didn’t save anything because Trump would escalate it.
And there it is, like clockwork.
The assumption that anyone who doesn’t love genocide must be a Trump supporter.
Huey Long on the difference between Democrats and Republicans.
Lol ‘both sides same’ BS again. How many years have you missed? About 23.
I’m not sure what you mean.
You missed the last 23 years. Gore in office would have been dramatically different than Bush. Obama gave healthcare, no way the Republicans would have done that. Trump literally tried a coup. But you want to say ‘both sides same’ lol. You missed the last 23 years.
Okay, got it. In regards to capitalism, “both sides” are the same. I missed way more than 23 years before I found Marxism, lol.
You think trying to overturn Chevon precedent is both sides the same? Overturning EPA decision making ability? Basic rules and regulations? You know all these things that hand in hand with companies and free market? Taxes both personal and corporate. No they are not the same lol. Not to mention that you are trying to artificially limit this to capitalism as if elections are limited to that, which you are still wrong about. Sorry to say at this point you are wilfully ignorant and bad faith, I’m not going to waste any more breath.
Sorry I upset you. That was not my intention. Don’t let anyone on the internet anger you, it’s not worth your energy.
hey do you have a Mastodon or anything? a peertube channel? time for new friends?
No other social media, just Lemmy. How ‘bout a comrade instead?
Marx and Engels had proportional representation to work with instead of first past the post. This is exactly why the US needs proportional representation, at least for congress, to break the de-facto two party system.
That doesn’t prevent the workers from forming their own party and promoting their own candidates. Circumstances in every country will always be different.
How did that strategy work out for them?
Pretty good
I consider China “state capitalism” (I don’t think the workers even own the means of production). Certainly not the kind of authoritarian “Marxism” I’d want anyway.
I skimmed through the article, and it makes a lot of mentions of Germany and France, so I’m guessing it didn’t work out to well in those countries.
I don’t think anyone really wants authoritarian Marxism, but they established a legacy that is still studied today. It would be interesting to know what they thought of the movement today.