• ???OP
    link
    210 months ago

    They shouldn’t have killed any civilians, but I understand why they’d attack an illegal settlement right outside their open air prison.

      • ???OP
        link
        5
        edit-2
        10 months ago

        Despite it being “lovely”, it’s still on stolen Palestinian land, hence illegal.

        Edit:

        I read further (from the same link)

        Be’eri was well known for its pro-peace sympathies: It had a special fund to give financial help to Gazans who came to the kibbutz on work permits, and kibbutzniks would often volunteer to drive sick Palestinians to an oncology center in southern Israel

        That’s great though, I respect that. That changes my view on that kibbutz. I don’t agree with Hamas’ blanket statements and generalization, and have been critical of them since I was first aware of their existence and lost many friends over it.

        Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.

        In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).

        • PugJesus
          link
          fedilink
          110 months ago

          It’s been Israeli since 1948. It’s not an illegal settlement under international law.

          • ???OP
            link
            4
            edit-2
            10 months ago

            In 1946 actually.

            PS: please see my edit on the comment on your link! thanks.

            • PugJesus
              link
              fedilink
              310 months ago

              In 1946 actually.

              Yes, but Israel wasn’t formally declared until '48.

              • ???OP
                link
                310 months ago

                And what exactly happened between 1946-1948?

                • PugJesus
                  link
                  fedilink
                  010 months ago

                  And what exactly happened between 1946-1948?

                  A lot of ethnic violence? Do you want me to start citing examples in '46-'48 of Jews being beaten to death? I presume you are already aware of the reverse being performed on Palestinian Arabs.

                  • ???OP
                    link
                    0
                    edit-2
                    10 months ago

                    So what’s the relevance of the settlement being founded in 1946?

                    Funny how the natives of an area resist colonization.

          • @HappycamperNZ
            link
            010 months ago

            Its almost like they went to war with their allies and lost territory when they lost or something.

        • PugJesus
          link
          fedilink
          -310 months ago

          Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.

          That doesn’t change that Hamas’s goals and methods are genocidal in all but success rate. “Well, they were oppressed for so long” might be a ‘why’, but it’s hardly a ‘why’ worth mentioning; no more than the history of oppression of the Jews is worth mentioning when discussing the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. Ultimately, there is only one answer worth giving - that genocide is unacceptable, and whichever side is currently attempting it (Israel, in this case) must be punished, and the side that was recently attempting it (Hamas) must not be justified or lionized.

          In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).

          Propaganda moves and negotiations for hostage swaps aren’t signs of being ‘not all bad’ and not wanting to ‘do bad things’. Fuck man, every terrorist group of note in history makes those propaganda moves - terrorist states like Israel included.

          • ???OP
            link
            310 months ago

            Neither Hamas’ goals nor their methods are “genocidal”. They don’t call for the eradication of Jewish people. You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide. But now? Nah.

            • PugJesus
              link
              fedilink
              -3
              edit-2
              10 months ago

              Neither Hamas’ goals nor their methods are “genocidal”.

              Wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity and targeting of civilians centers based on the predominant ethnicity isn’t genocidal in method?

              What would it take, theoretically, to convince you that Hamas’s goals remain genocidal? Other, of course, than their murderous actions?

              They don’t call for the eradication of Jewish people.

              I can find a great deal to dispute this.

              You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide.

              Hence my statement that it wasn’t genocidal “Only for lack of success.”

              This isn’t the first such attack. This isn’t even the second or the third. This is just the most successful one so far.

              • ???OP
                link
                210 months ago

                I can find a great deal to dispute this.

                Cool, show me where in their latest charter? Or examples from its leaders?

                • PugJesus
                  link
                  fedilink
                  -410 months ago

                  Or examples from its leaders?

                  How many will it take for you to concede the point? Just so I know when to stop collecting.

                  • ???OP
                    link
                    1
                    edit-2
                    10 months ago

                    I mean, enough to show that they are unhinged and with no criticism or action coming towards them from Hamas?

                    I guess hold them up to the standard similar to or a hit below that of demonstrating that Israel is outspoken about its genocidal intent. Israel is pretty open about it so it might be hard to demonstrate it that clearly as is the case with Israel lol