We absolutely need to be doing more on this front and I think the best solution is actually pretty simple: men should read feminist literature (or discourse) that has their interests in mind. If you take nearly any one of these people and make them read bell hooks (this is the hard part), it will almost certainly change their lives for the better. What’s more, a lot of that just comes down to having their pain validated and it’s relation to patriarchy exposed.
At the risk of oversimplifying, I don’t think men need to read feminist literature. Nothing wrong if you do, but I think men in general need to stop smelling their own farts and take a long, hard, and uncomfortable look in the mirror.
Figure out who exactly it is you want to be. What traits does this version of yourself have? Chances are, ‘intolerant shit sack’ aren’t the words we want to describe ourselves with. Then we start to ask if we are said shit sack, and if so, how do we stop from being one.
The point I am trying to make is that we far too often focus on small things, and lose sight of the big picture.
I think men in general need to stop smelling their own farts and take a long, hard, and uncomfortable look in the mirror.
Figure out who exactly it is you want to be. What traits does this version of yourself have? Chances are, ‘intolerant shit sack’ aren’t the words we want to describe ourselves with.
I think this mentality is why so many men have a problem with feminism. When you start your conversation with “you’re the problem”, you’re going to alienate the group you’re attempting to reach out to. Men have real problems that deserve to be noticed and recognized, and not all of them are a result of patriarchal culture. Telling them that they’re to blame for their problems because they’re “intolerant shit sacks” is just going to convince them that the problem is feminism.
When you start your conversation with “you’re the problem”, you’re going to alienate the group you’re attempting to reach out to.
Valid. However, my vitriol stems primarily from having been a shit sack at one point. It’s painful to see many guys suffer through the same thing. Most of which, may not be as lucky as I was and actually clue in and want to change, or will struggle to change but be unable to due to lack of support or guidance.
Men have real problems that deserve to be noticed and recognized, and not all of them are a result of patriarchal culture
Again, on the nose, and while we must acknowledge and validate these issues, we absolutely must not let ourselves wallow or let these issues limit or define us.
No, my point is to stop being an asshole, we need to want to change, and the way we do that is through self-reflection and identifying where we need to change.
If our vision of who we want to be and who we actually are don’t align we need to start self improvement and punching items off the list we’ve created.
That is what I’m saying - and that is not how it works. We need first to help people to not become assholes in the first place and second help people change. Why? If nothing else for pure selfish reason.
You need to create media tailored to them but with progressive message. There is no one size fits them all approach and I would say no receipy. In general it has to be an artist who understands their life experience rather well and has the skills to make content they will enjoy. People like Contrapoints and Hasan definitely have some success with reaching that audience.
There is a ton of negative messaging about males coming from the left.
I would disagree. There are sure some, but I would say most comes from misrepresentation through the right or mainstream media. I gave even two examples of creators targeting young male audience in quite different ways.
if you take a young man and give him a choice between a group that treats him as the villain
Again I disagree that feminism treats man as the villain. On most fundamental level it’s critique of a system not individuals to beginn with. While at the same time I give you that there are feminist groups that are fundamentally misandrist, that is not the case for the movement as a whole and I would even argue not the case for the majority of people who see themselves as feminist.
We absolutely need to be doing more on this front and I think the best solution is actually pretty simple: men should read feminist literature (or discourse) that has their interests in mind. If you take nearly any one of these people and make them read bell hooks (this is the hard part), it will almost certainly change their lives for the better. What’s more, a lot of that just comes down to having their pain validated and it’s relation to patriarchy exposed.
First you would have to actually write feminist books that are targeting angry young men
At the risk of oversimplifying, I don’t think men need to read feminist literature. Nothing wrong if you do, but I think men in general need to stop smelling their own farts and take a long, hard, and uncomfortable look in the mirror.
Figure out who exactly it is you want to be. What traits does this version of yourself have? Chances are, ‘intolerant shit sack’ aren’t the words we want to describe ourselves with. Then we start to ask if we are said shit sack, and if so, how do we stop from being one.
The point I am trying to make is that we far too often focus on small things, and lose sight of the big picture.
I think this mentality is why so many men have a problem with feminism. When you start your conversation with “you’re the problem”, you’re going to alienate the group you’re attempting to reach out to. Men have real problems that deserve to be noticed and recognized, and not all of them are a result of patriarchal culture. Telling them that they’re to blame for their problems because they’re “intolerant shit sacks” is just going to convince them that the problem is feminism.
Valid. However, my vitriol stems primarily from having been a shit sack at one point. It’s painful to see many guys suffer through the same thing. Most of which, may not be as lucky as I was and actually clue in and want to change, or will struggle to change but be unable to due to lack of support or guidance.
Again, on the nose, and while we must acknowledge and validate these issues, we absolutely must not let ourselves wallow or let these issues limit or define us.
Your point is basically: why don’t all assholes just stop being assholes. That is not how any of this works.
No, my point is to stop being an asshole, we need to want to change, and the way we do that is through self-reflection and identifying where we need to change.
If our vision of who we want to be and who we actually are don’t align we need to start self improvement and punching items off the list we’ve created.
That is what I’m saying - and that is not how it works. We need first to help people to not become assholes in the first place and second help people change. Why? If nothing else for pure selfish reason.
Thanks for the clarification; I actually missed what you meant, and I agree with you
I don’t know how we stop them in the first place though. You have to get everyone to buy into a concerted approach to make a systemic change.
I’m legit curious if you’ve got ideas on how to get there. How do you convince 1B dudes to not listen to Tate’s messaging, for instance.
You need to create media tailored to them but with progressive message. There is no one size fits them all approach and I would say no receipy. In general it has to be an artist who understands their life experience rather well and has the skills to make content they will enjoy. People like Contrapoints and Hasan definitely have some success with reaching that audience.
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I would disagree. There are sure some, but I would say most comes from misrepresentation through the right or mainstream media. I gave even two examples of creators targeting young male audience in quite different ways.
Again I disagree that feminism treats man as the villain. On most fundamental level it’s critique of a system not individuals to beginn with. While at the same time I give you that there are feminist groups that are fundamentally misandrist, that is not the case for the movement as a whole and I would even argue not the case for the majority of people who see themselves as feminist.
How do you propose to get people doing this self reflection in the first place?