That’s not true. I haven’t said anything is irrelevant simply because I don’t like it. I’ve said it’s irrelevant because it’s not relevant to the point I’ve made. Whether something is legal or not is irrelevant because my argument is not taking a position on the legality of something. It’s also irrelevant if the point deals only with the semantics of what a specific word means because my argument is not about the definition of the word, it’s about the deprivation of a gain in an exchange. It’s also not relevant if it’s a moral argument because I’m not against piracy and don’t care about the morality of it. I’m only arguing about the justification people are using to pretend that piracy is not depriving someone of the value of their work. My point is in asking people to simply admit that they are stealing when pirating something. Otherwise, piracy would not be a thing. There’d be no reason for the word “piracy” as the acquisition of the content would not matter if it was something other than a form of theft.
But, sure… It’s just a wordy version of “nuh uh”. Now keep telling me you’re not a dishonest person.
My point is in asking people to simply admit that they are stealing when pirating something. Otherwise, piracy would not be a thing. There’d be no reason for the word “piracy” as the acquisition of the content would not matter if it was something other than a form of theft.
And here is the fun part, you have been soundly and completely shown that piracy (software) is not stealing or theft in the semantic, legal and even moral sense. You even help others arguments with your “irrelevant” approach to any counterpoint by stating that is not the argument you are making. Then you also call anyone who engages with you “dishonest” without the slightest indication or example of dishonesty.
Ignoring and misrepresenting my argument to argue another one is dishonest. You can claim it’s not but that just gives me more reason not to engage with you.
They are ignoring my argument. My argument is not flawed. We don’t accept it in any other context with any other intangible items so I don’t understand why it’s acceptable here.
Stealing is different to pirating. You can say that both are wrong, but you can’t claim that both are the same.
Yes, I can… and I am. They’re both wrong because, whatever you call them, they’re theft of something. Anything else is just a semantic argument. You’re taking something and gaining a benefit from it without compensating the creator for it. We don’t accept that in any other context, whether tangible or intangible.
Your argument is flawed, because piracy is different to theft. You say they are the same, when they are not.
There is a potential loss with piracy, but that isn’t theft. Theft requires actual loss. This isn’t a semantic argument, it is a core principle of the definition of theft.
Your argument is flawed, because piracy is different to theft.
No, my argument is specifically that piracy and theft are not different. My argument can’t be flawed because they’re different if the argument is that they’re different. That’s circular reasoning. You can’t just say that they are different without pointing out how they are materially different in a way that a creator is properly compensated for the content that they created since that is the entire crux of my argument. If a creator isn’t getting paid for someone consuming their work, then that’s theft. We don’t allow people to consume anything else they haven’t paid for in any other context so, unless you can make a meaningful distinction for a creator, you haven’t actually addressed the central premise of my argument.
There is a potential loss with piracy, but that isn’t theft.
It is not a potential loss, though. If someone consumes that media then it is a real, tangible loss. They consumed the media without paying for it. The idea that they may not have paid for it anyways is unresolvable with the idea that, if they hadn’t paid for it and piracy wasn’t an option, then they wouldn’t have been able to consume that media.
You can’t just say that they are different without pointing out how they are materially different
I have pointed out how they’re different, from my first comment to my last.
Theft involves taking a tangible asset from someone. It may also involve a potential loss in income.
Copyright infringement only involves the potential loss in income.
Your claim is that the producer has lost out with copyright infringement because of the time and effort and cost they put into making that thing. That cost would happen regardless of copyright infringement occurring. Thus you cannot assign the potential loss against the cost - it would have occurred either way.
If someone consumes that media then it is a real, tangible loss.
No, it isn’t.
They consumed the media without paying for it.
Yes, they did.
The idea that they may not have paid for it anyways is unresolvable with the idea that, if they hadn’t paid for it and piracy wasn’t an option, then they wouldn’t have been able to consume that media.
Sure. But what you’re ignoring is the idea of whether or not they would have bought instead of pirating.
If they would have paid, and didn’t because they pirated, then there was a loss. If the wouldn’t have paid but only consumed the material because it was free, then there is no loss. Thus, the loss is only potential.
The reality is that most of the content people pirate is not content they would have paid for, even if piracy was not an option. Thus, for the most part, piracy does not indicate any tangible loss.
I have pointed out how they’re different, from my first comment to my last.
I said materially different. You’ve pointed out ways they are different that have no bearing on my point and aren’t relevant to it. You’ve mostly focused on the legal aspects of copyright infringement vs. physical theft which has nothing to do with my argument.
And now you’ve done it again. You’re arguing the legality of copyright infringement and how it differs from physical theft which has no bearing on my position.
But what you’re ignoring is the idea of whether or not they would have bought instead of pirating.
I’m not ignoring it. I’ve literally stated the argument against that statement several times - if they didn’t buy it, they couldn’t consume it if piracy didn’t exist.
only consumed the material because it was free
It wasn’t free. That’s why it’s stealing.
The reality is that most of the content people pirate is not content they would have paid for,
Then they shouldn’t be able to consume it! There’s no issue if they wouldn’t have paid for it if they don’t consume it. The whole argument that they wouldn’t have bought it becomes bullshit as soon as they do consume it because, without piracy, they would not have been able to consume it.
Who said I ignored or misrepresented your argument? This is the first time you have brought this particular accusation and I am somewhat interested in how you came to such a conclusion. I am clearly not ignoring you or your argument (I am still waiting for you to finish defining it after all) and other then quotes from you I have hardly even started to represent, let alone misrepresent you.
I think once again we can look at the many people you call dishonest as a form of projection.
That’s not true. I haven’t said anything is irrelevant simply because I don’t like it. I’ve said it’s irrelevant because it’s not relevant to the point I’ve made. Whether something is legal or not is irrelevant because my argument is not taking a position on the legality of something. It’s also irrelevant if the point deals only with the semantics of what a specific word means because my argument is not about the definition of the word, it’s about the deprivation of a gain in an exchange. It’s also not relevant if it’s a moral argument because I’m not against piracy and don’t care about the morality of it. I’m only arguing about the justification people are using to pretend that piracy is not depriving someone of the value of their work. My point is in asking people to simply admit that they are stealing when pirating something. Otherwise, piracy would not be a thing. There’d be no reason for the word “piracy” as the acquisition of the content would not matter if it was something other than a form of theft.
But, sure… It’s just a wordy version of “nuh uh”. Now keep telling me you’re not a dishonest person.
And here is the fun part, you have been soundly and completely shown that piracy (software) is not stealing or theft in the semantic, legal and even moral sense. You even help others arguments with your “irrelevant” approach to any counterpoint by stating that is not the argument you are making. Then you also call anyone who engages with you “dishonest” without the slightest indication or example of dishonesty.
Ignoring and misrepresenting my argument to argue another one is dishonest. You can claim it’s not but that just gives me more reason not to engage with you.
They’re not ignoring your argument, your argument is simply flawed.
Stealing is different to pirating. You can say that both are wrong, but you can’t claim that both are the same.
They are ignoring my argument. My argument is not flawed. We don’t accept it in any other context with any other intangible items so I don’t understand why it’s acceptable here.
Yes, I can… and I am. They’re both wrong because, whatever you call them, they’re theft of something. Anything else is just a semantic argument. You’re taking something and gaining a benefit from it without compensating the creator for it. We don’t accept that in any other context, whether tangible or intangible.
Your argument is flawed, because piracy is different to theft. You say they are the same, when they are not.
There is a potential loss with piracy, but that isn’t theft. Theft requires actual loss. This isn’t a semantic argument, it is a core principle of the definition of theft.
No, my argument is specifically that piracy and theft are not different. My argument can’t be flawed because they’re different if the argument is that they’re different. That’s circular reasoning. You can’t just say that they are different without pointing out how they are materially different in a way that a creator is properly compensated for the content that they created since that is the entire crux of my argument. If a creator isn’t getting paid for someone consuming their work, then that’s theft. We don’t allow people to consume anything else they haven’t paid for in any other context so, unless you can make a meaningful distinction for a creator, you haven’t actually addressed the central premise of my argument.
It is not a potential loss, though. If someone consumes that media then it is a real, tangible loss. They consumed the media without paying for it. The idea that they may not have paid for it anyways is unresolvable with the idea that, if they hadn’t paid for it and piracy wasn’t an option, then they wouldn’t have been able to consume that media.
I have pointed out how they’re different, from my first comment to my last.
Theft involves taking a tangible asset from someone. It may also involve a potential loss in income.
Copyright infringement only involves the potential loss in income.
Your claim is that the producer has lost out with copyright infringement because of the time and effort and cost they put into making that thing. That cost would happen regardless of copyright infringement occurring. Thus you cannot assign the potential loss against the cost - it would have occurred either way.
No, it isn’t.
Yes, they did.
Sure. But what you’re ignoring is the idea of whether or not they would have bought instead of pirating.
If they would have paid, and didn’t because they pirated, then there was a loss. If the wouldn’t have paid but only consumed the material because it was free, then there is no loss. Thus, the loss is only potential.
The reality is that most of the content people pirate is not content they would have paid for, even if piracy was not an option. Thus, for the most part, piracy does not indicate any tangible loss.
I said materially different. You’ve pointed out ways they are different that have no bearing on my point and aren’t relevant to it. You’ve mostly focused on the legal aspects of copyright infringement vs. physical theft which has nothing to do with my argument.
And now you’ve done it again. You’re arguing the legality of copyright infringement and how it differs from physical theft which has no bearing on my position.
I’m not ignoring it. I’ve literally stated the argument against that statement several times - if they didn’t buy it, they couldn’t consume it if piracy didn’t exist.
It wasn’t free. That’s why it’s stealing.
Then they shouldn’t be able to consume it! There’s no issue if they wouldn’t have paid for it if they don’t consume it. The whole argument that they wouldn’t have bought it becomes bullshit as soon as they do consume it because, without piracy, they would not have been able to consume it.
Who said I ignored or misrepresented your argument? This is the first time you have brought this particular accusation and I am somewhat interested in how you came to such a conclusion. I am clearly not ignoring you or your argument (I am still waiting for you to finish defining it after all) and other then quotes from you I have hardly even started to represent, let alone misrepresent you.
I think once again we can look at the many people you call dishonest as a form of projection.