Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn’t change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn’t work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that “this is the way women are treated”
I’ve heard that it’s not something I can understand because I’m comfortable in my gender, but I don’t think that’s true. I’m extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they’re referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don’t understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here’s a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender,
No, it’s because you’re comfortable with your gender. Thinking you’re too enlightened to be concerned with gender is again, patronizing as fuck, implying that trans people just care too much about things that don’t matter.
If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that.
You’re actively trying to not understand it. Being a man/woman is simply a matter of being treated like you would any other man or woman. And I know you’re going to respond with “I don’t treat people differently”. Even if that were the case, which there’s no way that’s true. Even if you were 100% bisexual, attracted to both genders identically, and really could ignore 10s of thousands of years of cultural history, that’s not what most people want. Even if YOU could, most people prefer there to be gendered differences. There are just some inherent biological differences. No one is saying people’s roles should be defined by their gender, or for limiting people of any gender to express themselves any way they see fit. But if you’re saying that football or hockey or boxing aren’t inherently masculine, then I don’t know what to tell you.
we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
Those are forced gender biases, not necessarily roles. Unless you’re saying that it’s possible for everyone to be 100% bisexual and have no preference whatsoever for gender in any way, then your whole argument is missing the entire point, just so you can proclaim you “don’t see gender”. It’s similar to how racists always say they “don’t see race”.
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn’t change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn’t work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that “this is the way women are treated”
I’ve heard that it’s not something I can understand because I’m comfortable in my gender, but I don’t think that’s true. I’m extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they’re referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don’t understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here’s a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
No, it’s because you’re comfortable with your gender. Thinking you’re too enlightened to be concerned with gender is again, patronizing as fuck, implying that trans people just care too much about things that don’t matter.
You’re actively trying to not understand it. Being a man/woman is simply a matter of being treated like you would any other man or woman. And I know you’re going to respond with “I don’t treat people differently”. Even if that were the case, which there’s no way that’s true. Even if you were 100% bisexual, attracted to both genders identically, and really could ignore 10s of thousands of years of cultural history, that’s not what most people want. Even if YOU could, most people prefer there to be gendered differences. There are just some inherent biological differences. No one is saying people’s roles should be defined by their gender, or for limiting people of any gender to express themselves any way they see fit. But if you’re saying that football or hockey or boxing aren’t inherently masculine, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Those are forced gender biases, not necessarily roles. Unless you’re saying that it’s possible for everyone to be 100% bisexual and have no preference whatsoever for gender in any way, then your whole argument is missing the entire point, just so you can proclaim you “don’t see gender”. It’s similar to how racists always say they “don’t see race”.