I’m never going to diagnose a friend or family member with an illness or disability. Until they say something, they’re just a picky eater or fidgety and I will bully them relentlessly for their minor character defect, as is tradition. Communicate in a way that works, written or verbally, or it’s fair game.
Came here from All and didn’t notice the community, sorry about that.
In a friend group setting, yes, your visible traits, wants, past experiences, and tastes are on the table for humor. This is nearly universal and I fail to see the issue.
I’m in my early 40s, grew up in the rural midwest, was quite autistic and didn’t understand the concept of ribbing. I didn’t get that until I was like 30, at which point I looked back in horror at so many friendships that had died when people became “hostile” suddenly.
But that was the rural midwest in the 1990s. I went to a tiny high school. We had like seven popular bands on the radio and two TV stations as our cultural milieu.
Me and my friends could rip into one another, and we did. Not so much the ribbing stuff, which I didn’t understand until later in life. But philosophical discussions, politics, jokes, we said some raunchy, cutting stuff to each other because we knew each other could take it.
These days, there are a lot more cultures overlapping and mixing, and changing rapidly. The shared context is much less. The places it’s safe to rib people are smaller.
It sucks, but it’s reasonable too, given the circumstances.
Also, kids are much more used to relying on text as the primary driver of whether communication is hostile or friendly. Because they grew up having text-only conversations. Creating friendships, learning to socialize, finding themselves, all in this text-only realm.
Just culturally speaking, using the nonverbal cues as the location of the “friend or foe” information is a thing from my generation’s upbringing.
Sort of like in The Expanse how the Belters nod with their fist instead of their head, because a vac suit obscures head movements.
Different circumstances growing up, different cultural assumptions, different communication channels and different sets of communication channels.
We’re used to:
Friendly = friendly tone, [any words, friendly or unfriendly]
Unfriendly = unfriendly tone, [any words]
They’re used to:
Friendly = friendly words
Unfriendly = unfriendly words
When we are online:
Friendly = non-insults, over-the-top-obviously-ineffectual insults that don’t fit well enough to land, generosity of interpretation
Unfriendly = insults that land, non-generosity of interpretation
If it’s okay for an autistic person to have these traits, why can’t someone else? This kind of mindset is what makes the world so inherently hostile to autistic people. Even if you don’t shame people whom you know to have autism for these traits, you are still communicating to them that you think these traits are bad when you shame others for having them.
And why are these traits “bad?” None of these really affect anyone but the person who has them. Picky eating limits the person’s own choices, not your own. Their lack of understanding of humor or sarcasm isolates them socially from others, not you. It’s not a reflection on the quality of your joke. Their awkwardness hurts themself significantly more than it can possibly hurt you. Not wanting to be touched is a basic personal boundary that should be respected no matter whose boundary it is. Fidgeting is a harmless motion. Most of what we shame for being “cringey” interests are rooted in misogyny anyway, and others’ interests do not harm you in any way. Meltdowns are something that anyone can experience, if pushed to the brink. Autistic people just happen to have more sensitivities, and also to live in a world that is actively hostile to them. Of course they will be pushed to the brink more often.
It can be hard to unlearn ableism. And I hope you’re able to read these words with an open mind and take the time to introspect on why you hold the beliefs that you have expressed here, and try to understand the harm that they cause to autistic people. It’s especially harmful to express them here — as I’m glad that you noticed, and walked back — but I wanted to also address you in a more general way, because I believe that this sentiment would have been harmful even if you had expressed it on 196 (where you stated that you originally thought you were.)
It’s fine for everyone to have those traits, but that doesn’t preclude these traits from being made fun of in a friendly setting. A person’s ability to accept good natured humor at their expense and whether good natured ribbing is acceptable are separate discussions. You’d be kind of a cunt to joke about something that someone might actually be insecure about. That’s the only difference. You don’t jab where skin is thin, you congratulate. Measuring yourself against others and improving or accepting yourself is the core of interpersonal relationships.
Imagine for a moment that you lived in a world where the vast majority of people were different from you. They liked to eat something that you find disgusting: we’ll say gravel. Their humor relied on advanced knowledge of something that you didn’t have knowledge of, like string theory.
Every day that you turn on your television, you see shows making “fun” of people who don’t understand string theory and who don’t find chewing on gravel to be an ideal meal. Every day when you are at work, people look at your food and ask, “why aren’t you eating gravel? Is something wrong with you?” Every time that you try to make friends, they rapidly shoot lines back and forth about string theory that you don’t understand, and when they notice how lost you are, they shame you for it. When you try to tell them about something you find interesting, they call you “embarrassingly unscientific” or something, and exclude you.
So you’re tired, because it feels like the whole world is against you. And you go home and settle down for the day, and you call up a good friend because you just want to feel seen and understood. And your friend sees your dinner on the camera, and they say “Rockless dinner again? You’re so picky! It’s not hard to just sprinkle a little limestone on top, you know.” They then proceed to tell an elaborate joke about string theory, which they know you won’t understand, and then get angry when you don’t find it funny and tell you to lighten up.
Wouldn’t you feel terrible if this was how your ‘friend’ treated you? Would you really find their treatment “good-natured?”
Sure, some of your friends may actually be able to tolerate this ribbing. But the vast majority of autistic people are just tired of the constant jokes at their expense. They might not say anything about it, because it’s so commonplace that if they pushed back people would say they’re “making a scene.” Other downtrodden groups also face this and are stereotyped as “angry black women” etc when they put up boundaries about how others should treat them. And so many people learn to just grin and bear it, in the name of keeping the peace and avoiding drawing attention.
I’d also like to address this phrase specifically, emphasis mine:
A person’s ability to accept good natured humor at their expense […]
Autism is called a disability, meaning that there is a difference between the ability levels of autistic and non-autistic people for certain things. Some autistic people lack the ability to parse this kind of humor. It is not their fault. It is not a judgement on their character as a person. It’s merely a part of who they are. You don’t tell someone that they’re lesser as a person because they can’t shoot a bullseye, write with their non-dominant hand, do long division in their head, or understand recordings when played backwards. These things are as arbitrary as being able to understand sarcasm, to sit still, or to follow a conversation in a noisy room.
And, frankly, it’s not as funny as you think it is, so I don’t blame people for not thinking that it is. You seem somewhat defensive of your brand of humor — which I understand, because it can feel like some sort of judgement on your skill level or something — but can you not just… make other jokes?
Why would you make fun of them if you don’t think these traits are bad?
As another autistic person, I didn’t understand this instinctively so I can actually articulate an answer for you.
The reason you make fun of your friends is to reinforce the shared understanding that you are friends.
I’ll try and come up with an analogy.
There is a king who keeps very tight security around him at all times. Everyone must be disarmed before they enter his chamber, because he doesn’t trust anyone. Except for one man. There is a knight in this king’s court who is allowed to wear his sword into the king’s audience chamber.
Why? Well, because it is an honor to be trusted to this degree. And why does the knight bring the sword in? Because every time the king chooses to allow the knight’s sword into his presence he reinforces his own trust in the knight. He reinforces the pathways in his brain that consist of this trust.
That’s the knight’s reason.
Why does the king allow the knight to bring the sword in? Because every time the knight chooses not to draw that sword and kill the king, he reinforces the part of his brain that is loyal to the king. That is the king’s reason.
The king and the knight both benefit from their relationship; they both want it to be strengthened.
So they allow the creation of a situation that only works if they’re friends, because this disambiguates the relationship in their mind.
I know it’s not the best analogy. But it’s about competing narratives in the brain, and how presenting a scenario whose resolution into one decision or the other reinforces the narrative that matches the decision.
If we are friends, and we’re hanging out, and I say something insulting to you, I’m doing that because the insult gives you an opportunity to reaffirm our friendship by choosing to take it lightly and laugh at it. The word “reaffirm” here encapsulates the logic in the last three paragraphs preceding this one.
The insults are the sword in the audience chamber. They are a threat. By dismissing the threat, one reaffirms the relationship.
It makes more sense in the context of demonstrating to a third party that two people are friends — say if that third party was thinking of playing them against one another — and to apply it to two friends alone you just need to remember a human brain runs thousands of little minds in parallel.
You’d be kind of a cunt to joke about something that someone might actually be insecure about.
So we’ve got two scenarios to consider.
Scenario one is you don’t know this person. Hence anything might be something they’re insecure about.
Scenario two is you do know this person. Meaning you’re in an ongoing relationship with them. Meaning years. Meaning you’d better be disciplined about only giving them shit once or twice about it. Because in the course of years, you’re going to have hundreds of opportunities.
And guess what happens when you poke someone repeatedly anywhere hundreds of times? They get sore
So if someone doesn’t have a document signed by a doctor stating that they are, in fact, different than the norm, you can be an asshole to them for being different from the norm? Go fuck yourself.
I behave as is contextually appropriate without issue and offering my two cents to an online autism support group is just… not. There is a fair amount of subtext missed or misunderstood, given this setting and audience, and I’m not looking to offend people searching for support and camaraderie with hyperbole taken literally. Anything else I can say would appear patronizing or offensive, but suffice it to say that I’m genuinely not rude in person.
That does make sense of some things, this is intended as a safe space and I violated that. That was sincerely my mistake. Thank you and sorry. I thought I was in 196.
I’m not worried about votes, I intruded on a safe space and only realized afterward. That was my mistake and I’m just hoping this will be taken as the apology it’s meant to be.
You know, I don’t really agree with this, but I appreciate you saying it. We need more people just coming out and saying what they think, rather than clamming up because their opinions are now unpopular but then continuing to act/bully the same behind the scenes.
Bluntness is a virtue in my world, because I can actually parse what you say this way lmao
Nothing you said was out of line. It’s an important skill to be able to laugh at yourself. It’s also an important skill to not make fun of someone after they have let you know there is a good reason that you shouldn’t. I’m autistic myself and the energy of this comment section is making me strongly consider blocking this community and moving on.
I’m not going to get in the way of the self improvement of others so I’ll hold my tongue on all but the most salient point. Safe spaces have value and knowing whether you need one or not is incredibly valuable in and of itself. I do not, so interjecting my opinions on people who need to take steps before they reach the same point provides no value to me or them. What you’ve achieved is an accomplishment, don’t forget that. Similarly, never forget what you overcame to reach the place you’re at.
Or just say you’re diagnosed as autistic and most people will stop. Jabs at an actual, medically relevant trait aren’t okay. Jabs at Ted aimed at his singular diet of coleslaw and hotdogs are fair until they’re not.
Getting diagnosed isn’t free, it can also be counterproductive if you can make-do without support. This is for several reasons, including discrimination. Not to mention it can be harder to diagnose an adult and even more so pointless as most support centers on autistic children (so I guess fuck us once we’re adults/s).
I was diagnosed at three years old. My father has never been diagnosed. We’re a lot alike and now that my family knows #1 Autism is a thing, & #2 what at-least one Autistic person is like some of us believe that he is autistic too. There’s not much point in him being diagnosed in spite of him hitting a lot of the same criteria I do because he is able to make-do without help. He very well may benefit if he had support but he doesn’t and has managed to arrange his life to evade most of the things that give him difficulty.
I’m never going to diagnose a friend or family member with an illness or disability. Until they say something, they’re just a picky eater or fidgety and I will bully them relentlessly for their minor character defect, as is tradition. Communicate in a way that works, written or verbally, or it’s fair game.Came here from All and didn’t notice the community, sorry about that.
So, I have to give you my medical diagnosis about personal mental health issues before you respect me enough to not make fun of me?
In a friend group setting, yes, your visible traits, wants, past experiences, and tastes are on the table for humor. This is nearly universal and I fail to see the issue.
Oh wait, I thought you were joking.
I’m in my early 40s, grew up in the rural midwest, was quite autistic and didn’t understand the concept of ribbing. I didn’t get that until I was like 30, at which point I looked back in horror at so many friendships that had died when people became “hostile” suddenly.
But that was the rural midwest in the 1990s. I went to a tiny high school. We had like seven popular bands on the radio and two TV stations as our cultural milieu.
Me and my friends could rip into one another, and we did. Not so much the ribbing stuff, which I didn’t understand until later in life. But philosophical discussions, politics, jokes, we said some raunchy, cutting stuff to each other because we knew each other could take it.
These days, there are a lot more cultures overlapping and mixing, and changing rapidly. The shared context is much less. The places it’s safe to rib people are smaller.
It sucks, but it’s reasonable too, given the circumstances.
Also, kids are much more used to relying on text as the primary driver of whether communication is hostile or friendly. Because they grew up having text-only conversations. Creating friendships, learning to socialize, finding themselves, all in this text-only realm.
Just culturally speaking, using the nonverbal cues as the location of the “friend or foe” information is a thing from my generation’s upbringing.
Sort of like in The Expanse how the Belters nod with their fist instead of their head, because a vac suit obscures head movements.
Different circumstances growing up, different cultural assumptions, different communication channels and different sets of communication channels.
We’re used to:
They’re used to:
When we are online:
When they are in real life:
If it’s okay for an autistic person to have these traits, why can’t someone else? This kind of mindset is what makes the world so inherently hostile to autistic people. Even if you don’t shame people whom you know to have autism for these traits, you are still communicating to them that you think these traits are bad when you shame others for having them.
And why are these traits “bad?” None of these really affect anyone but the person who has them. Picky eating limits the person’s own choices, not your own. Their lack of understanding of humor or sarcasm isolates them socially from others, not you. It’s not a reflection on the quality of your joke. Their awkwardness hurts themself significantly more than it can possibly hurt you. Not wanting to be touched is a basic personal boundary that should be respected no matter whose boundary it is. Fidgeting is a harmless motion. Most of what we shame for being “cringey” interests are rooted in misogyny anyway, and others’ interests do not harm you in any way. Meltdowns are something that anyone can experience, if pushed to the brink. Autistic people just happen to have more sensitivities, and also to live in a world that is actively hostile to them. Of course they will be pushed to the brink more often.
It can be hard to unlearn ableism. And I hope you’re able to read these words with an open mind and take the time to introspect on why you hold the beliefs that you have expressed here, and try to understand the harm that they cause to autistic people. It’s especially harmful to express them here — as I’m glad that you noticed, and walked back — but I wanted to also address you in a more general way, because I believe that this sentiment would have been harmful even if you had expressed it on 196 (where you stated that you originally thought you were.)
It’s fine for everyone to have those traits, but that doesn’t preclude these traits from being made fun of in a friendly setting. A person’s ability to accept good natured humor at their expense and whether good natured ribbing is acceptable are separate discussions. You’d be kind of a cunt to joke about something that someone might actually be insecure about. That’s the only difference. You don’t jab where skin is thin, you congratulate. Measuring yourself against others and improving or accepting yourself is the core of interpersonal relationships.
Imagine for a moment that you lived in a world where the vast majority of people were different from you. They liked to eat something that you find disgusting: we’ll say gravel. Their humor relied on advanced knowledge of something that you didn’t have knowledge of, like string theory.
Every day that you turn on your television, you see shows making “fun” of people who don’t understand string theory and who don’t find chewing on gravel to be an ideal meal. Every day when you are at work, people look at your food and ask, “why aren’t you eating gravel? Is something wrong with you?” Every time that you try to make friends, they rapidly shoot lines back and forth about string theory that you don’t understand, and when they notice how lost you are, they shame you for it. When you try to tell them about something you find interesting, they call you “embarrassingly unscientific” or something, and exclude you.
So you’re tired, because it feels like the whole world is against you. And you go home and settle down for the day, and you call up a good friend because you just want to feel seen and understood. And your friend sees your dinner on the camera, and they say “Rockless dinner again? You’re so picky! It’s not hard to just sprinkle a little limestone on top, you know.” They then proceed to tell an elaborate joke about string theory, which they know you won’t understand, and then get angry when you don’t find it funny and tell you to lighten up.
Wouldn’t you feel terrible if this was how your ‘friend’ treated you? Would you really find their treatment “good-natured?”
Sure, some of your friends may actually be able to tolerate this ribbing. But the vast majority of autistic people are just tired of the constant jokes at their expense. They might not say anything about it, because it’s so commonplace that if they pushed back people would say they’re “making a scene.” Other downtrodden groups also face this and are stereotyped as “angry black women” etc when they put up boundaries about how others should treat them. And so many people learn to just grin and bear it, in the name of keeping the peace and avoiding drawing attention.
I’d also like to address this phrase specifically, emphasis mine:
Autism is called a disability, meaning that there is a difference between the ability levels of autistic and non-autistic people for certain things. Some autistic people lack the ability to parse this kind of humor. It is not their fault. It is not a judgement on their character as a person. It’s merely a part of who they are. You don’t tell someone that they’re lesser as a person because they can’t shoot a bullseye, write with their non-dominant hand, do long division in their head, or understand recordings when played backwards. These things are as arbitrary as being able to understand sarcasm, to sit still, or to follow a conversation in a noisy room.
And, frankly, it’s not as funny as you think it is, so I don’t blame people for not thinking that it is. You seem somewhat defensive of your brand of humor — which I understand, because it can feel like some sort of judgement on your skill level or something — but can you not just… make other jokes?
And sorry to double reply, but I feel like I missed this. (I have a tendency to ramble, I should probably refine my responses before sending. Eh.)
Why would you make fun of them if you don’t think these traits are bad?
As another autistic person, I didn’t understand this instinctively so I can actually articulate an answer for you.
The reason you make fun of your friends is to reinforce the shared understanding that you are friends.
I’ll try and come up with an analogy.
There is a king who keeps very tight security around him at all times. Everyone must be disarmed before they enter his chamber, because he doesn’t trust anyone. Except for one man. There is a knight in this king’s court who is allowed to wear his sword into the king’s audience chamber.
Why? Well, because it is an honor to be trusted to this degree. And why does the knight bring the sword in? Because every time the king chooses to allow the knight’s sword into his presence he reinforces his own trust in the knight. He reinforces the pathways in his brain that consist of this trust.
That’s the knight’s reason.
Why does the king allow the knight to bring the sword in? Because every time the knight chooses not to draw that sword and kill the king, he reinforces the part of his brain that is loyal to the king. That is the king’s reason.
The king and the knight both benefit from their relationship; they both want it to be strengthened.
So they allow the creation of a situation that only works if they’re friends, because this disambiguates the relationship in their mind.
I know it’s not the best analogy. But it’s about competing narratives in the brain, and how presenting a scenario whose resolution into one decision or the other reinforces the narrative that matches the decision.
If we are friends, and we’re hanging out, and I say something insulting to you, I’m doing that because the insult gives you an opportunity to reaffirm our friendship by choosing to take it lightly and laugh at it. The word “reaffirm” here encapsulates the logic in the last three paragraphs preceding this one.
The insults are the sword in the audience chamber. They are a threat. By dismissing the threat, one reaffirms the relationship.
It makes more sense in the context of demonstrating to a third party that two people are friends — say if that third party was thinking of playing them against one another — and to apply it to two friends alone you just need to remember a human brain runs thousands of little minds in parallel.
So we’ve got two scenarios to consider.
Scenario one is you don’t know this person. Hence anything might be something they’re insecure about.
Scenario two is you do know this person. Meaning you’re in an ongoing relationship with them. Meaning years. Meaning you’d better be disciplined about only giving them shit once or twice about it. Because in the course of years, you’re going to have hundreds of opportunities.
And guess what happens when you poke someone repeatedly anywhere hundreds of times? They get sore
So if someone doesn’t have a document signed by a doctor stating that they are, in fact, different than the norm, you can be an asshole to them for being different from the norm? Go fuck yourself.
Removed by mod
Looks like everyone here shares either my interpretation or a very similar one. If you truly feel misunderstood, you should write better instead.
Is poking fun at friends and family really so entirely out of vogue that I need to explain further? Sincere question.
Removed by mod
Kinda, yeah. I thought I was in another community entirely.
Sorry about that, didn’t realize what community I was in.
So you’ll just continue being ignorant somewhere else? You really need to check in with your behaviour around other people.
I behave as is contextually appropriate without issue and offering my two cents to an online autism support group is just… not. There is a fair amount of subtext missed or misunderstood, given this setting and audience, and I’m not looking to offend people searching for support and camaraderie with hyperbole taken literally. Anything else I can say would appear patronizing or offensive, but suffice it to say that I’m genuinely not rude in person.
Or you could just not be an asshole? Because autism has nothing to do with it and this just makes you an asshole regardless of the situation.
Do you know what group you’re in, dickhead? Kindly fuck off.
That does make sense of some things, this is intended as a safe space and I violated that. That was sincerely my mistake. Thank you and sorry. I thought I was in 196.
I’ll up vote. Dw
I’m not worried about votes, I intruded on a safe space and only realized afterward. That was my mistake and I’m just hoping this will be taken as the apology it’s meant to be.
Except you’ve made no apology…
You know, I don’t really agree with this, but I appreciate you saying it. We need more people just coming out and saying what they think, rather than clamming up because their opinions are now unpopular but then continuing to act/bully the same behind the scenes. Bluntness is a virtue in my world, because I can actually parse what you say this way lmao
Nothing you said was out of line. It’s an important skill to be able to laugh at yourself. It’s also an important skill to not make fun of someone after they have let you know there is a good reason that you shouldn’t. I’m autistic myself and the energy of this comment section is making me strongly consider blocking this community and moving on.
I’m not going to get in the way of the self improvement of others so I’ll hold my tongue on all but the most salient point. Safe spaces have value and knowing whether you need one or not is incredibly valuable in and of itself. I do not, so interjecting my opinions on people who need to take steps before they reach the same point provides no value to me or them. What you’ve achieved is an accomplishment, don’t forget that. Similarly, never forget what you overcame to reach the place you’re at.
Oh ur bullied?
So is everyone else. Stop using your autism as an excuse maybe?
Or just say you’re diagnosed as autistic and most people will stop. Jabs at an actual, medically relevant trait aren’t okay. Jabs at Ted aimed at his singular diet of coleslaw and hotdogs are fair until they’re not.
Getting diagnosed isn’t free, it can also be counterproductive if you can make-do without support. This is for several reasons, including discrimination. Not to mention it can be harder to diagnose an adult and even more so pointless as most support centers on autistic children (so I guess fuck us once we’re adults/s). I was diagnosed at three years old. My father has never been diagnosed. We’re a lot alike and now that my family knows #1 Autism is a thing, & #2 what at-least one Autistic person is like some of us believe that he is autistic too. There’s not much point in him being diagnosed in spite of him hitting a lot of the same criteria I do because he is able to make-do without help. He very well may benefit if he had support but he doesn’t and has managed to arrange his life to evade most of the things that give him difficulty.