Slide with text: “Rust teams at Google are as productive as ones using Go, and more than twice as productive as teams using C++.”

In small print it says the data is collected over 2022 and 2023.

  • @[email protected]
    11•8 months ago

    Can confirm, I was super excited about D about 10-15 years ago when all of that had recently been resolved. It’s a really cool language, but it didn’t really get much traction and Rust solves a lot of the problems I have with it, so I use that now.

    That said, here are some features I really miss from D:

    • compile-time function execution - basically write macros in D; I saw some madlads writing a complete shader render loop at compile-time
    • opt-out garbage collection - you get GC by default, but it’s pretty easy to make portions or all of your code safe w/o it
    • explicit scopes for finalizers - destructors can be run deterministically instead of “eventually” like in many GC languages
    • safeD - things like tagged pure and safe functions; basically, you can write in a checked subset, but it’s opt-in, unlike Rust’s opt-out
    • nice functional syntax
    • reentrant coroutines
    • really fast compiler

    But at the end of the day, Rust provides more guarantees, enough features, and a fantastic ecosystem. But if both had the same ecosystem today, I would give D a serious consideration.

    • @orclevEnglish
      3•8 months ago

      compile-time function execution - basically write macros in D; I saw some madlads writing a complete shader render loop at compile-time

      There are of course macros, but they’re kind of a pain to use. Zigs comptime fn are really nice and a similar concept. Rust does have const fn but of course those come with limits on them.

      explicit scopes for finalizers - destructors can be run deterministically instead of “eventually” like in many GC languages

      You kind of get that with Rust for free. You get implicit GC for anything stack allocated, and technically heap allocated values are deterministically freed which you can work out by tracking their ownership. As soon as the owning scope exits it will be freed. If you want more explicit control you can always invoke std::mem::drop to force it to be freed immediately, but generally you don’t gain much by doing so.

      really fast compiler

      Some really great work is being done on that pretty much all the time but… yeah, I can’t reasonably argue that the Rust compiler is fast. Taking full advantage of incremental compilation helps a lot, but if you’re doing a clean build, better grab a coffee.

      What would be nice is if cargo explored a similar solution to what Arch Linux used, where there’s a repository of pre-compiled libraries for various platforms and configurations that can be used to speed up build times. That of course does come with a whole heap of problems though, probably the biggest of which is that it’s a HUGE security nightmare. Of lesser concern is the fact that they could not realistically do so for every possible combination of features or platforms, so it would likely only apply to crates built with the default features for a small subset of the most popular platforms. I’m also not sure what the tree shaking would end up looking like in a situation like that.

      • @[email protected]
        4•8 months ago

        There are of course macros

        Yup, and Rust’s macros are pretty cool, but in D you can just do:

        static if (condition) {
    ...
}

        There’s a whole compile-time reflection library as well, so you can take a class and make a super-optimized serialization/deserialization library if you want. It’s super cool, and I built a compile-time JSON library just because I could…

        You kind of get that with Rust for free

        Yup, Rust is awesome.

        But in D you can do explicit scope guards:

        • scope(exit) - basically Go’s defer()
        • scope(success) - only runs when no exceptions are run
        • scope(failure) - only runs when there’s an exception

        I didn’t use them much, but they are really cool, so you can do explicit cleanup as you go through the logic flow, but defer them until they’re needed.

        It’s a neat alternative to RAII, which D also supports.

        Some really great work is being done on that pretty much all the time

        I still need to try out Cranelift, which was posted here recently. Cranelift release mode could mostly solve this for me.

        That said, I haven’t touched D in years since moving to Rust, so I obviously find more value in it. But I do miss some of the candy.

        • @orclevEnglish
          4•8 months ago

          But in D you can do explicit scope guards

          Hmm… that is interesting.

          scope(exit) is basically just an inline std::ops::Drop trait, I actually think it’s a bad thing that you can mix that randomly into your code as you go instead of collecting all of the cleanup actions into a single function. Reasoning about what happens when something gets dropped seems much more straightforward in the Rust case. For instance it wasn’t immediately clear that those statements get evaluated in reverse order from how they’re encountered which is something I assumed, but had to check the documentation to verify.

          scope(success) and scope(failure) are far more interesting as I’m not aware of a direct equivalent in Rust. There’s the nightly only feature of std::ops::Try that’s somewhat close to that, but not exactly the same. Once again though, I’m not convinced letting you sprinkle these statements throughout the code is actually a good idea.

          Ultimately, while it is interesting, I’m actually happy Rust doesn’t have that feature in it. It seems like somewhat of a nightmare to debug and something ripe to end up as a footgun.

          • @[email protected]
            3•8 months ago

            For instance it wasn’t immediately clear that those statements get evaluated in reverse order

            It’s a stack, just like Go’s defer().

            scope(success) and scope(failure) are far more interesting as I’m not aware of a direct equivalent in Rust

            Probably because Rust doesn’t have exceptions, and I’m pretty sure there are no guarantees with panic!().

            Ultimately, while it is interesting, I’m actually happy Rust doesn’t have that feature in it

            Same, but that’s because Rust’s semantics are different. It’s nice to have the option if RAII isn’t what you want for some reason (it usually is), but I absolutely won’t champion it since it just adds bloat to the language for something that can be solved another way.

            • @orclev
              3•8 months ago

              Probably because Rust doesn’t have exceptions

              Well, it has something semantically equivalent while being more explicit, which is Result (just like Option is the semantic equivalent of null).

              and I’m pretty sure there are no guarantees with panic!().

              I actually do quite a bit of bare metal Rust work so I’m pretty familiar with this. There are sort of guarantees with panic. You can customize the panic behavior with a panic_handler function, and you can also somewhat control stack unwinding during a panic using std::panic::catch_unwind. The later requires that anything returned from it implement the UnwindSafe trait which is sort of like a combination Send + Sync. That said, Rust very much does not want you to regularly rely on stack unwinding. Anything that’s possible to recover from should use Result rather than panic!() to signal a failure state.

              • @[email protected]
                3•8 months ago

                Yup. My point is just that scope(failure) could be problematic because of the way Rust works with error handling.

                What could maybe be cool is D’s in/out contracts (example pulled from here):

                int fun(ref int a, int b)
in
{
    assert(a > 0);
    assert(b >= 0, "b cannot be negative!");
}
out (r)
{
    assert(r > 0, "return must be positive");
    assert(a != 0);
}
do
{
    // function body
}

                The scope(failure) could partially be solved with the out contract. I also don’t use this (I find it verbose and distracting), but maybe that line of thinking could be an interesting way to generically handle errors.

                • @orclevEnglish
                  2•8 months ago

                  Hmm… I think the Rust-y answer to that problem is the same as the Haskell-y answer, “Use the Types!”. I.E. in the example above instead of returning an i32 you’d return a NonZero<u32>, and your args would be a: &NonZero<u32>, b: u32. Basically make invalid state unrepresentable and then you don’t need to worry about the API being used wrong.

                  • @[email protected]
                    2•8 months ago

                    I’m more referring to a more general application, such as:

                    fn do_stuff() -> Result<...> {
    if condition {
        return Error(...)
    }

    return Ok(...)
} out (r) {
    if r.is_err() {
        // special cleanup (maybe has access to fn scope vars)
    }
}

                    That gives you some of the scope(failure) behavior, without as many footguns. Basically, it would desugar to:

                    fn do_stuff() -> Result<...> {
    let ret = if condition { Error(...) } else { Ok(eee) };

    if ret.is_err() {
        ...
    }

                    I’m not proposing this syntax, just suggesting that something along these lines may be interesting.

    • @Spedwell
      2•8 months ago

      I’m still a big fan of D for personal projects, but I fear the widespread adoption ship has sailed at this point, and we won’t see the language grow anymore. It’s truly a beautiful, well-rounded language.

      Also just recently a rather prominent contributor forked the entire compiler/language so we’re seeing more fragmentation :/