BTW, thanks for discussing without engaging in ad-homs --I’m appreciating the conversation. It’s sad this needs to be said, but just getting it out there. To go back to the topic:
I didn’t say we should Ignore history. History is absolutely pertinent. When I’m talking about turning back the clock, I’m referring to the Peel commission as well as the establishment of the Jewish state. We can’t undo the process that occurred, just like we can’t undo the settlement of the Americas by western people that displaced the Native Americans. We need concrete, actionable plan that can bring the Israelis to the table. Dwelling on the actions of just the Israeli side is unproductive and will not yield any results. Just like the Marshall plan was effective with post WW2 Germany, action needs to happen towards reformation and peace building -Not reverting to playing the blame game.
On your edit:
This is not true. Israel has accepted two state solution proposals multiple times, but each time the Palestinians walked away (1947, 1968).
“Israel has been doing all the atrocities for 75 years”: I’m not sure what this is intended to say. Are you saying PLO, Hamas are without any blood on their hands? Palestinians have been committing acts of violence without exception, including in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Also one of the reasons these three --also Arab nations-- have had fraught relations with the Palestinians.
“Israel keeps provoking Palestinians”: I agree the settlements are the driver behind a lot of the violence. The settlements need to be demolished and returned to the Palestinian people without exception. But to speak in such absolute terms betrays a lot of history and dilutes your point or any effort towards a peace process.
“Israel wants to drop an atomic bomb”: again, the statement of some individuals is not representative of an entire government or people. But Israel’s right wing government is absolutely exploiting the Oct 7 attack in order to exert maximum casualties in Gaza. Netanyahu needs to be replaced asap.
Back to my original point: what needs to happen, concretely, moving forward? How can we bring both sides to the table for negotiations?
I didn’t say we should Ignore history. History is absolutely pertinent. When I’m talking about turning back the clock, I’m referring to the Peel commission as well as the establishment of the Jewish state. We can’t undo the process that occurred, just like we can’t undo the settlement of the Americas by western people that displaced the Native Americans. We need concrete, actionable plan that can bring the Israelis to the table. Dwelling on the actions of just the Israeli side is unproductive and will not yield any results. Just like the Marshall plan was effective with post WW2 Germany, action needs to happen towards reformation and peace building -Not reverting to playing the blame game.
Then I understood that incorrectly. It is true we cannot undo the process but we do have to understand what happened to also understand Hamas perspective (and the normal Palestinian civilians).
I, personally, was not dwelling on it. I was giving an argument and a bit of history, the first commentor pretended as if it started somewhere around the ~2000. Which is not true.
This is not true. Israel has accepted two state solution proposals multiple times, but each time the Palestinians walked away (1947, 1968).
Yes and again my question to that; Why would they agree to it? The land was unfairly ‘given away’ to the Jewish people back then. The Palestinians themselves had no say in it. The land was theirs (and still is!) and it was suddenly given away by another country (I think it was Britain?).
That’s like someone forcefully entering your home and claim ‘’this will now be our house’’. It does not work like that and it should not.
“Israel has been doing all the atrocities for 75 years”: I’m not sure what this is intended to say. Are you saying PLO, Hamas are without any blood on their hands? Palestinians have been committing acts of violence without exception, including in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Also one of the reasons these three --also Arab nations-- have had fraught relations with the Palestinians.
I mean by this that for more than 7 decades Israel has been doing immensely awful things (the things I listed before). No, I’m not saying Hamas and the other groups never had blood on their hands, they do.
But realize Hamas did not exist until 1987. Before that Israel already had shed much blood already.
Israel had been doing bad things for 39-40 years before Hamas become an actual group.
Hamas is a literal creation of Israel’s actions.
Certainly Palestinian have done their fair share of violence but many people from many countries as well.
“Israel keeps provoking Palestinians”: I agree the settlements are the driver behind a lot of the violence. The settlements need to be demolished and returned to the Palestinian people without exception. But to speak in such absolute terms betrays a lot of history and dilutes your point or any effort towards a peace process.
Israel has made the possibility of peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians not possible anymore and they (Israel Government) do not even want peace. They want the land and the Palestinians gone (erased) and this can be proven on how the entire Likud party behaves and speaks. I say that in absolute terms because it is true. Israel (government) keep provoking Palestinian people, there so many writing and video evidence of it.
“Israel wants to drop an atomic bomb”: again, the statement of some individuals is not representative of an entire government or people. But Israel’s right wing government is absolutely exploiting the Oct 7 attack in order to exert maximum casualties in Gaza. Netanyahu needs to be replaced asap.
This is not just ‘’some individual’’. This was said by the far-right Israeli Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Minister, Amichai Eliyahu. So yes, it can be representative.
Also Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called Palestinian people ‘’rats’’. Would you say the very Defense Minister of Israel is not an ‘’representative’’?
There’s enough evidence.
EDIT: Correction of a specific date “1948” to “1987”
That’s fair. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here --I don’t know that there’s much to contest. But, again, going back to the Peel partition is not going to happen. At that time, there was no “Palestine” as a nation and–as much as this sucks, because it does-- it was under British mandate. If we’re going to leverage history then both sides will play the same game: the Jews will say that this was their homeland 2000 years ago. That’s why I don’t place too much weight on land swaps that happened in the last century. At some point, we have to draw a line somewhere and move forward. I don’t think we can even go back to the 68 partition at this point, so what’s the point any more? Somehow, we need to force both parties into negotiations before more innocent people are killed. That’s my only thesis.
BTW, thanks for discussing without engaging in ad-homs --I’m appreciating the conversation. It’s sad this needs to be said, but just getting it out there. To go back to the topic:
On your edit:
Back to my original point: what needs to happen, concretely, moving forward? How can we bring both sides to the table for negotiations?
Then I understood that incorrectly. It is true we cannot undo the process but we do have to understand what happened to also understand Hamas perspective (and the normal Palestinian civilians).
I, personally, was not dwelling on it. I was giving an argument and a bit of history, the first commentor pretended as if it started somewhere around the ~2000. Which is not true.
Yes and again my question to that; Why would they agree to it? The land was unfairly ‘given away’ to the Jewish people back then. The Palestinians themselves had no say in it. The land was theirs (and still is!) and it was suddenly given away by another country (I think it was Britain?).
That’s like someone forcefully entering your home and claim ‘’this will now be our house’’. It does not work like that and it should not.
I mean by this that for more than 7 decades Israel has been doing immensely awful things (the things I listed before). No, I’m not saying Hamas and the other groups never had blood on their hands, they do.
But realize Hamas did not exist until 1987. Before that Israel already had shed much blood already. Israel had been doing bad things for 39-40 years before Hamas become an actual group. Hamas is a literal creation of Israel’s actions.
Certainly Palestinian have done their fair share of violence but many people from many countries as well.
Israel has made the possibility of peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians not possible anymore and they (Israel Government) do not even want peace. They want the land and the Palestinians gone (erased) and this can be proven on how the entire Likud party behaves and speaks. I say that in absolute terms because it is true. Israel (government) keep provoking Palestinian people, there so many writing and video evidence of it.
This is not just ‘’some individual’’. This was said by the far-right Israeli Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Minister, Amichai Eliyahu. So yes, it can be representative. Also Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called Palestinian people ‘’rats’’. Would you say the very Defense Minister of Israel is not an ‘’representative’’?
There’s enough evidence.
EDIT: Correction of a specific date “1948” to “1987”
That’s fair. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here --I don’t know that there’s much to contest. But, again, going back to the Peel partition is not going to happen. At that time, there was no “Palestine” as a nation and–as much as this sucks, because it does-- it was under British mandate. If we’re going to leverage history then both sides will play the same game: the Jews will say that this was their homeland 2000 years ago. That’s why I don’t place too much weight on land swaps that happened in the last century. At some point, we have to draw a line somewhere and move forward. I don’t think we can even go back to the 68 partition at this point, so what’s the point any more? Somehow, we need to force both parties into negotiations before more innocent people are killed. That’s my only thesis.