Archive of the greatest r/exmormon post ever

@[email protected] · 1 year ago

Archive of the greatest r/exmormon post ever

@[email protected] · 1 year ago

CONTINUED 4

ROFL!

While all this is going on Andrew is waging a two-front war, having an exchange with James Cutler over in the youtube comments area. Neal and Stephen seem to have quit and James has taken over. Here are screen shots of the exchange, and there is one part in particular I want to save below.

http://imgur.com/kGanEvu 2) http://imgur.com/E0xG2Z6 3) http://imgur.com/O1BWyhe 4) http://imgur.com/17voN7O 5) http://imgur.com/hYx42FR 6) http://imgur.com/yUEhtWi 7) http://imgur.com/8EbLPSf 8) http://imgur.com/Ct5b1IS 9) http://imgur.com/XRHRcRS 10) http://imgur.com/RMCLSdr 11) http://imgur.com/EeqYjeJ 12) http://imgur.com/gF2aTBt 13) http://imgur.com/28jTQf4 14) http://imgur.com/SIQ9X4S 15) http://imgur.com/YXdH2zF

My summary will not do this justice. James says some pretty crazy stuff. Such as this.

Also, the evidence obviously isn’t about Jewish ruins. It’s about ruins that bear the name NHM. It sounds like you are confused. *No one should care about how many ancient ruins in Arabia have symbols of any kind on them, unless they bear the name NHM, because, logically, that would make this evidence less of a bullseye for the BoM.

WTF?

But this is where things take an interesting turn. James makes a new claim about the wording of a passage in 1st Nephi that isn’t included in the video, but apparently has been published elsewhere in apologetic journals.

James says.

It actually says they traveled in “the borders” near the Red Sea, which, again if I am not mistaken, is quite similar to the meaning of the name “Hijaz”, the name of that very mountain range running along parallel to the Red Sea coast. Another fascinating bullseye for Joseph, if he made it all up.

Andrew’s responds.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The arabic “hejaz” does not mean “borders,” it means “barrier,” as in you cannot get across the freaking thing. It’s a massive “wall of china” that prevents you from getting to the coastline. And this is why the famous incense trail was on the east side of said barrier… people would have much preferred to travel along the coast where things are green and more fertile, but the problem is you sort of have to pick one side or the other.

BTW, I’m not sure how this would be a “fascinating bullseye” for Joseph…? Can you please walk me through your logic on that? Is this another one of those absurd word plays? Joseph uses the word “border” and you interpret this to be a name of a mountain range… “in the borders near the Red Sea” actually means “in the borders mountain range near the Red Sea” Not quite as humorous as the “meat commerce” thing, but this would definitely rank pretty high on the list of SMH arguments I’ve come across.

James then comes back with a gigantic rant which includes this.

Andrew’s comments over there get seemingly more and more desperate as the conversation continues, which to me is a clear sign of defense mechanisms getting the best of a person who could just admit they weren’t as right at the end of the conversation as they thought they were going into it. Here’s one example from a later portion of the conversation:

“Getting back to the meat of the discussion. I’d love to hear more about this argument that the Nephites didn’t travel along the coast. How is that reconciled with the text which specifically says they did? “And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the Red Sea.””

This is an obvious problem, as the text nowhere says, including in the portion quoted, that they traveled on the coast. This has been a crucial talking-past-each-other problem since the beginning. Really it’s just Mormons saying something rather clear, and Andrew ignoring it. It seems like one of those situations where Andrew must have come to a really strong aha!-moment conclusion in isolation, thought it was really compelling when he came up with it, then he tested it out in public by communicating his thoughts to other people, and his brilliant objection got ran over by a bus–the bus of obvious reality. The fact is the BoM never says they traveled on the coast. It says they traveled “in the borders” and the borders were near the Red Sea. Look at a map of the Hijaz mountains, folks. Interpretations are things people can disagree about, but what Andrew has no power to change is the fact that the text never says these words: “they stuck to the coast of the Red Sea”. It says something that would more reasonably mean that “the borders” they traveled in were near the Red Sea. And that’s a curious expression. Since when was it a common expression to say that one has been traveling “in the borders” without specifying what is being bordered? A curious expression indeed. Not one I would easily be able to attribute to Joseph’s imagination or dialect. That’s why the connection with the Hijaz/Hejaz mountains makes so much sense to me. And again, the linguistic connection was already made by others who sound more knowledgeable than Andrew. Andrew can nonetheless claim he, not they, is the real expert. That’s fine. I just have no reason to believe him instead of someone else if he doesn’t sound more credible than them to me. Andrew hasn’t really said anything to demonstrate his superior authority/expertise. Again, he hasn’t even brought up the observations of these other experts.

But as far as the “barrier, not border” objection is concerned, here’s a link to an actual thesaurus:

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/barrier?s=t

There everyone interested will find that, lo and behold, it turns out ‘border’ and ‘barrier’ can in some cases be synonymous. It’s almost as if Andrew had said, “No, you fools! That word means ‘crimson’, not ‘red’!” Uh … actually, those words are a lot more similar than some people seem to think they are.

The fact that this is the sort of thing critics are now resorting to quibbling about makes it even harder for me to see how they arrived at such a disdainful and high level of certainty through purely rational and objective means.

These kinds of conversations require a lot of time out of life. There are things I could have learned about the BoM by not engaging in a lot of these conversations. I had to spend a lot of time simply going through things I’ve already known about for a long time to address objections that should have led a lot of people to find answers where I’ve found them and where anyone can easily find them. If they’re interested in looking.

People, please go to bookofmormoncentral.org’s archive to find the answers you’re supposed to be looking for to the questions you have. If you’re not averse to asking Mormons like me and others here questions, you might as well go to that archive.

I appreciate the sincere questions and objections. Andrew’s objections here clearly are not sincere, but they have good answers anyway. To get a clear view of that, go to the blog post linked above.

@[email protected] · 1 year ago

CONTINUED 5

So this is where they go into full persecution complex mode. Andrew’s response.

No, I have not read this paper by Jeff Lindsay that you speak of. I’m googling it up this instant as I type this.

I see a page here, “Shazer on Lehi’s Trail: Perhaps More Interesting Than You Thought”

Reading this feels like reading a Star Trek blog. I’ve walked into a Trekkie convention. The guy Lindsay comes across to me like someone who is too smart for his own good. A rainman-like mind combined with boyish creativity and profound levels of ignorance. He ought to try writing fantasy novels and get paid for this type of work.

James, again no disrespect, but if you can’t understand how fanciful this is, we are way past the point of sane discussion. The idea that the english word “borders” is a reference to the Hejaz mountains is completely and totally idiotic. It’s pure fiction. And very pedestrian and uninteresting fiction at that.

Here’s a sentence.

And we did go camping in the woods, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the forest, which were in the borders near the Brazos River.

Your argument, or Lindsay’s rather, which you can do not more than parrot it seems, is that there is a mountain range alongside the Brazos River and that this is where we camped? No, we didn’t camp on the border of the landmass, which is bordered by the river, so we’re basically on the bank of the river, or pretty darn close to it, nope, there is a freaking mountain range in the middle of east texas and that’s where we are!

Do you speak English? Is it your first language?

Even if the word “hejaz” meant “border,” what in the sacred name of common sense are you talking about?

One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other thing!

But again, “hejaz” doesn’t mean “border” it means “barrier.” These are different meanings. James, please take an English 101 course when you go to college. Different words have different meanings. One word can also have multiple meanings.

Point - to point your finger at someone, the knife has a sharp point, james doesn’t understand the point of this discussion.

Languages are amazing.

A thesaurus is not a list of words that mean the exact same thing. It does group synonyms, but usually there aren’t that many of those and the longer part of the list is “related” words. Go back and take a look at that link. Notice how they color code things? There is a short list of words that are considered to be close to the same meaning in orange… with varying shades of orange. And then below that is “more words related to barrier” Pretty far down that list you find “boundary,” which lists “border,” along with other words like brink, compass, frontier, outpost, rim, skirt, terminal, etc. But that’s not all, there are other related words too further down. Like dike, levee, embankment, citadel, detention, captivity, among others, but my favorite, straitjacket! I think that is the most sensible parallel of all… the Book of Mormon is a mental straitjacket. Joseph was trolling you when he wrote “borders near the red sea.”

Forgive me, James. Yes, I am making fun of you, but I do so lightheartedly.

What’s funny though is using your logic here, we could just crack open a thesaurus, go through the whole book of mormon, and replace any word that suits us with another “related” word from the thesaurus, and completely change the meaning of the whole book into something we could produce some physical evidence for.

Languages also aren’t the same. Just because a certain rule works in English doesn’t mean it works in Arabic. Just because an English thesaurus shows two words as being related does not mean that an Arabic thesaurus will too. The etymology and meaning of the words is completely different.

Again I repeat though, and for the last time, “hejaz” does not mean borders. It means barrier. The HJZ roots have other meanings too, “to hold back, restrain, hinder, prevent, to keep away, to block off, to close, to bar, to isolate, confine, seclude, to make inaccessible, to arrest, to detain” Shall I go on? None of the meanings are to border something, edge or boundary, etc. There is a word for that though, “mahdood”

You use this apples to oranges example of “crimson” vs “red.” Those are both colors. border and barrier do not mean the same thing at all. these are not synonyms. and yes, you are a fool if you think otherwise. Do you ever hear Trump talking about “building a border?” Build a border! Build a border! No, Trump supporters aren’t chanting that. Because the border is already there. They instead chant, “Build a barrier, build a barrier,” specifying a particular type of barrier, “build a wall, build a wall.”

Also, some other fun tidbits to add in here. Hejaz, as a name, refers to many things in Arabia. There is a Hejaz mountain range, which we’ve been talking about, but there is also a district in Saudi Arabia called “Hejaz.” And this is an area that has a lot of history going pretty far back in time. I’ll let you figure out the implications of that. Hint: the english word “border” that doesn’t mean “hejaz,” which of the multiple Hejazs is it referring to?

James’ response to this is a lunatic screed that includes this bit.

One thing that will get in our way, I suspect, is linguistics. You keep insisting, for example, that Hijaz doesn’t mean what those other people say it means, but that it means what you say it means. I acknowledge that it means barrier. But how do you know it’s so strict and monosemous in its meaning that it can’t possibly also mean something like border? How do I know to trust you over those other people, Andrew? Fluff and banter and psychological fantasies about turning us Mormons into little children aside, what can you say to actually address the countervailing observations that have been made by people who have also been in the same places you’ve been, and who know more about the Semitic languages you claim to know?

@[email protected] · 1 year ago

CONTINUED 6

And then Andrew comes back with the kill shot that ends the entire NHM debate. Not just the debate with James, or Neal, or Stephen, but the entire NHM debate burned to the ground. All that’s left is to scatter the ashes and salt the earth where it stood.

Somewhere in all this chaos you’ve generated there has got to be one thing we can focus on. Since you brought up hejaz, how about we just stick to that?

You said, “You keep insisting, for example, that Hijaz doesn’t mean what those other people say it means, but that it means what you say it means. I acknowledge that it means barrier. But how do you know it’s so strict and monosemous in its meaning that it can’t possibly also mean something like border? How do I know to trust you over those other people, Andrew?”

In keeping with the pattern thus far your comprehension leaves much to be desired. I never said hejaz was monosemous. I offered lots of other meanings for the word, but “border” simply isn’t one of them. How do I know? Because I speak Arabic. The same way I know 2+2=4, because I know mathematics.

I’ve got an idea, which should settle the matter. I challenge you to produce anything written in arabic that uses the word hejaz in the manner you describe. Wait, I’ve got an even better idea. I have an Arabic Book of Mormon in a box somewhere, how about we just lookup 1 Nephi 16:14 and see what word it uses for border?

One sec, brb.

Found it!

Here is the last sentence of 1 Nephi 16:14 from the Arabic BOM. (switching to Arabic mode)

ثم واصلنا المضي في الصحر اء متخذين الاتجاه ذاته وملازمين اخصب مناطق البا ديه وهي المنا طق المحاذيه للبحر الاحمر

Since we’re aiming for a less snarky tone, I’ll just break this down for you. The relevant part of the sentence is this.

المنا طق المحاذيه للبحر الاحمر

In english characters, “al manatiqu al muhadeeha lil bahr al ahmar,” which translates, “the area bordering the Red Sea.”

minataqa = area

al-bahr al-ahmar = red sea

And the verb for “bordering” is… mahdood, the same word I cited in my last post. You may notice some differences though. The word “mahdood” is a bit different than “muhadeeha” for instance, that’s because it’s conjugated. The word lil is a grammar construct, combining the prefix “al” in a pointing kind of way. Not sure how to describe it. Anyway, I think you get the idea. Well, probably not, but I’m done.

Now, just in case you think I’m trying to pull a Die Hard on you, that I get my rocks off by making up gibberish sentences in Arabic for strangers on the internet, I’ve taken the liberty of taking a picture of the book with my phone and uploading it. Here is the link.

http://imgur.com/a/sffWi

Before dropping the mic I have one more thing to add. I’m really glad you took the discussion in this direction. Because, I believe this puts the final nail in the NHM coffin. Earlier I translated the text to read “the area bordering the Red Sea,” which is accurate, but it’s not the best translation. I translated it that way because we were comparing with the same verse in the English BOM, so I wanted to use that same word for consistency, “bordering.” A more accurate translation however for those who speak Arabic would be “adjacent” or “next to.” It’s not just bordering, but a more specific proximity is implied by the word.

So in english it reads, “in the borders near the Red Sea.”

And in arabic it reads, “the area adjacent to the Red Sea.”

Huh. They both mean the same thing, but the Arabic is more explicit, isn’t it? Borders near the red sea has a little big of a wiggly feel to it, near can be argued as somewhat subjective. 20 ft, 20 miles, 200 miles. I mean if you’re standing in Utah, 200 miles is “near” by comparison. That word adjacent though is sharp and unambiguous. There is no wiggle room here, this is clearly describing them as being right next to the coast.

So, based on the text, which has now been witnessed by the divine pattern of two, no, Nehem in the Yemen cannot possibly be the Nahom spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

In the end, the one and only piece of physical evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon is unraveled by the church’s own Arabic translation of the Book of Mormon.