So, the secularized explanation for the “miracle” that I was taught way back in the 1980s when secularizing religion was cool, was that Jesus effectively inspired people in the audience to share their food with one another.
That’s it. That’s the lesson. Share with your neighbors.
All of them has forgotten to bring bread except one loaf and Jesus tells them not to trust the bread of other groups, reminds them of the two times he miracled-up food before, and yells at them for being stupid.
If the lesson was about pooling resources why suggest it would work again if they are in isolation? Why suggest they don’t go to the group that can bail them out? If you and two people don’t have food even if you pool resources 0 + 0 + 0 = 0.
If the lesson however is that Jesus is magical and can do whatever he feels like the story makes more sense.
Just a reminder, among prot scholars every time the Bible self-references (like here) that text is considered more likely to be true and important vs when it doesn’t. So here we have a guy doing an act and he is telling people the lesson of the act.
All of them has forgotten to bring bread except one loaf and Jesus tells them not to trust the bread of other groups
He said: “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
He did not say to discount the bread of “other groups”, much less the very disciples who had come to hear him.
Neither does he resolve the problem with a miracle in this chapter. He simply extols his apostles to understand the lessons of the Sermon on the Mount.
If the lesson however is that Jesus is magical and can do whatever he feels like the story makes more sense.
If the lesson was that Jesus is Magical, it wouldn’t have been this plea to remember the prior events. He would have simply magicked up some bread.
No, this is a plea towards self-reliance. Don’t trust the patronage of these rival church groups. Don’t trust the patronage of a hostile government. You must feed yourselves.
Just a reminder, among prot scholars every time the Bible self-references (like here) that text is considered more likely to be true and important vs when it doesn’t.
So then how does this refute the claim that The Sermon On The Mount occurred?
He did not say to discount the bread of “other groups”, much less the very disciples who had come to hear him.
Read the passage, he does.
Neither does he resolve the problem with a miracle in this chapter. He simply extols his apostles to understand the lessons of the Sermon on the Mount.
What verse says that? Btw, as I am sure you are aware this story is in Mark and the Sermon on the Mount was in Matthew, not in Mark. You totally knew that and you must have forgotten for a second, I am sure.
If the lesson was that Jesus is Magical, it wouldn’t have been this plea to remember the prior events. He would have simply magicked up some bread.
Assertion not fact.
No, this is a plea towards self-reliance. Don’t trust the patronage of these rival church groups. Don’t trust the patronage of a hostile government. You must feed yourselves.
It doesn’t say that. That is what you are putting on it.
So then how does this refute the claim that The Sermon On The Mount occurred?
Didn’t say it did. Well not directly at least. You brought up the loaf and bread miracle (must have forgotten for a moment it happened twice, I am sure) and I discussed it. As a scholar such as yourself knows it is an example of a Mark sandwich story which is the author’s attempt to deal with competing oral narratives, but whatever. The point is we can tell the author was willing to lie about small things for this passage which puts in doubt other authors who used him as a source, like Matthew. Short answer no that story doesn’t disprove that speech but it does cast doubt on how honest people were being.
You know the 3 miracles are just recycled Elisha and Elijiah food multiplication miracles and the Jesus rebuking them was just Mark trying to talk smack about James+Cephus.
Either would do.
Fine. I am going to ignore what textual criticism thinks about those two stories for a moment. What do you think the deep lesson behind them is?
So, the secularized explanation for the “miracle” that I was taught way back in the 1980s when secularizing religion was cool, was that Jesus effectively inspired people in the audience to share their food with one another.
That’s it. That’s the lesson. Share with your neighbors.
Cool, except Jesus disagrees with you.
Mark 8:14-21
All of them has forgotten to bring bread except one loaf and Jesus tells them not to trust the bread of other groups, reminds them of the two times he miracled-up food before, and yells at them for being stupid.
If the lesson was about pooling resources why suggest it would work again if they are in isolation? Why suggest they don’t go to the group that can bail them out? If you and two people don’t have food even if you pool resources 0 + 0 + 0 = 0.
If the lesson however is that Jesus is magical and can do whatever he feels like the story makes more sense.
Just a reminder, among prot scholars every time the Bible self-references (like here) that text is considered more likely to be true and important vs when it doesn’t. So here we have a guy doing an act and he is telling people the lesson of the act.
He said: “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
He did not say to discount the bread of “other groups”, much less the very disciples who had come to hear him.
Neither does he resolve the problem with a miracle in this chapter. He simply extols his apostles to understand the lessons of the Sermon on the Mount.
If the lesson was that Jesus is Magical, it wouldn’t have been this plea to remember the prior events. He would have simply magicked up some bread.
No, this is a plea towards self-reliance. Don’t trust the patronage of these rival church groups. Don’t trust the patronage of a hostile government. You must feed yourselves.
So then how does this refute the claim that The Sermon On The Mount occurred?
Read the passage, he does.
What verse says that? Btw, as I am sure you are aware this story is in Mark and the Sermon on the Mount was in Matthew, not in Mark. You totally knew that and you must have forgotten for a second, I am sure.
Assertion not fact.
It doesn’t say that. That is what you are putting on it.
Didn’t say it did. Well not directly at least. You brought up the loaf and bread miracle (must have forgotten for a moment it happened twice, I am sure) and I discussed it. As a scholar such as yourself knows it is an example of a Mark sandwich story which is the author’s attempt to deal with competing oral narratives, but whatever. The point is we can tell the author was willing to lie about small things for this passage which puts in doubt other authors who used him as a source, like Matthew. Short answer no that story doesn’t disprove that speech but it does cast doubt on how honest people were being.
You know the 3 miracles are just recycled Elisha and Elijiah food multiplication miracles and the Jesus rebuking them was just Mark trying to talk smack about James+Cephus.
I quoted the passage and he does not.