I think you’re 100% right. The OP and I just had a really good discussion that helped me understand the heart of our disagreement regarding their tanky take is different perceptions of Lemmy population tanky sentiment. I mostly see comments to the effect of “where are all these tanky comments?”, a sentiment I share, versus “those aren’t tankies, therefore it’s not a tanky comment”, some of which I think they’ve seen as tanky apologia. And maybe it is, I’m sure they’ve had their own unique Lemmy experience. Anyhow, it meant the implications of their statements are interpreted entirely differently between the two of us. This dovetails perfectly with your comment. Not necessarily that they’re a liberal, as I can only guess about their beliefs, but that my experience on different, definitely more leftist instances is likely significantly different than theirs on .world.
Yep, I agree. I think a particularly large part of it is that many on Lemmy.world are tangentially familiar with Marxism and Anarchism, but fundamentally have not yet engaged with the source material. A quick example is Marx’s view on Government, which gets confused with Anarchistic by Liberals who have only heard “Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society” and stopped there, when Marx has always advocated for a Democratic World Republic.
That’s why I try to spend a good amount of time trying to lead Liberals towards Leftist theory like Marx or Goldman, and towards Dialectical Materialism rather than Idealism. The Liberals on Lemmy.world are radical, but directionless, so actual Leftists are scary.
As for OP, they called me a “fascist” for saying voting isn’t going to move America left, outside revolutionary pressure will. I have never advocated against voting, and have also expressed my intention to vote for Biden, but OP can’t resist when it comes to punching left.
They admitted that they’re quick on the draw, which I think explains the punching, but I don’t think they’re intentionally a bad actor. I think we’re all dealing with the application of what you’ve so eloquently explained: we’re talking about the same broad topics but using words and concepts that mean entirely different things depending on the commenter or reader, plus individual personality quirks. We’re all definitely not always benevolent, patient, and reasonable, even when when we think we are.
When I put on my old “I’m liberal but think socialism is edgy cool despite misunderstanding what it is” hat from my younger years, I can see how a lot of things just in the few paragraphs we’ve written can seem really awful or scary. Outside revolutionary pressure? That’s China, right? Tanky!
Oh, I agree! I don’t think OP is an intentionally bad actor, at all really. I would, however, bet with absolute confidence that they have never actually engaged with Marxism or Anarchism, which is why it would be fantastic if they agreed to read leftist theory. It’s just frustrating to see nothing but left punching from OP and judgements on who is left and who is right without engaging with leftist theory themselves.
Your second paragraph absolutely resonates. I myself used to be a “centrist,” then a liberal once I actually grew up a little bit, then became a leftist during my college years and have been reading theory and trying to better my understanding ever since. To be called a fascist when I know for absolute fact that I stand to the left of OP just frustrates me.
That all being said, I don’t believe OP is bad-faith, just not familiar with leftism and haven’t really done any reading. I’d be thrilled if they agreed to read Marx, but they have probably mentally written me off.
Oh, I agree! I don’t think OP is an intentionally bad actor, at all really. I would, however, bet with absolute confidence that they have never actually engaged with Marxism or Anarchism, which is why it would be fantastic if they agreed to read leftist theory. It’s just frustrating to see nothing but left punching from OP and judgements on who is left and who is right without engaging with leftist theory themselves.
What was your stake? You’d lose your absolute confidence bet. Fuck man, I have repeatedly expressed support for anarchists on here. But you know, anyone who doesn’t like tankies just hasn’t read enough theory, of course. If only they read more theory! /s
That all being said, I don’t believe OP is bad-faith, just not familiar with leftism and haven’t really done any reading. I’d be thrilled if they agreed to read Marx, but they have probably mentally written me off.
I’ve read Marx, and expressed on here, multiple times, great admiration for Marx and Engels and their writing, and even cited them at points.
Sorry that that’s not enough to make me pro-tankie. Fuck, if anything, it made me more anti-tankie.
Sorry, on second thought, you should really explain to me what I believe, you know me better than I do.
You know what? If you’ll entertain me, I’ll accept that I lost that bet. What leftist theory have you read? This isn’t a no true leftist, read more theory purity test bullshit, I am curious what you have read and what your conclusions are. As my comment said, it’s frustrating to see nothing but left punching, and calling people fascists with no evidence. Can you understand why that might be frustrating?
Seriously, I am extending an olive branch here. I want to have a productive convo with you and try to come to an understanding. If you don’t want to try, that’s fine, but I figured I’d try anyways. Like I said, I don’t think you’re a bad actor.
The Communist Manifesto, Critique Of The Gotha Programme, Theories Of Surplus Value, and various assorted letters and articles. I attempted Das Kapital, but it was dry enough and enough of a slog that I ended before the halfway point.
The Conquest Of Bread, State And Revolution, Anarchism And Other Essays, various 20th century articles and letters from socialist writers and theorists, ML and anti-ML.
Innumerable books and articles dealing with the actual history of socialist movements, especially anarchist movements, either in whole or in passing.
Okay, a very sizeable list. Not doing the whole Read more theory! bit, just suggesting Value, Price, and Profit and Wage Labor and Capital as shorter and condensed, though half of Capital probably covers more than those do. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a good read from Engels on Historical Materialism if you care.
As for Lenin, Imperialism is probably his most important work when it comes to understanding a lot of Leftists on Lemmy, IMO. Many Leftists I see form most of their foreign policy positions on the conclusions Lenin provides in it.
As a precursor, I consider myself a Leftist, not an ML, not an Anarchist. I am anti-sectarian, because I believe the path to Socialism will be different in every country. Whether that be Marxism, Syndicalism, Anarchism, the overall goal is to move leftward and collectivize ownership of the Means of Production.
Do you disagree with any of that? Do you believe it enough to consider me a fascist, or was that a one-off kneejerk reaction?
As for Lenin, Imperialism is probably his most important work when it comes to understanding a lot of Leftists on Lemmy, IMO. Many Leftists I see form most of their foreign policy positions on the conclusions Lenin provides in it.
I feel like a lot of Lemmy Leftists miss Lenin elsewhere on foreign policy, though. Not that I would regard myself as pro-Lenin in general.
Imperialism is as much our “mortal” enemy as is capitalism. That is so. No Marxist will forget, however, that capitalism is progressive compared with feudalism, and that imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism. Hence, it is not every struggle against imperialism that we should support. We will not support a struggle of the reactionary classes against imperialism; we will not support an uprising of the reactionary classes against imperialism and capitalism.
God, I’ve seen so much apologia for Iranian theocracy on here that it makes my head spin.
Do you disagree with any of that? Do you believe it enough to consider me a fascist, or was that a one-off kneejerk reaction?
No, I don’t disagree. As mentioned before, I’m quick to snap, especially since many people on here openly salivate about the idea of a fascist takeover here in the US, because “Both sides are the same” or “It will move people left”.
I honestly don’t remember calling you a fascist (I’m sure I did, as I am quick to emphasize that supporting the rise of fascists like Trump, actively or passively, IS sitting at a table with 9 fascists, and quick to assume bad faith), but it was probably incorrect, and definitely spoken in anger rather than careful consideration.
I think you’re 100% right. The OP and I just had a really good discussion that helped me understand the heart of our disagreement regarding their tanky take is different perceptions of Lemmy population tanky sentiment. I mostly see comments to the effect of “where are all these tanky comments?”, a sentiment I share, versus “those aren’t tankies, therefore it’s not a tanky comment”, some of which I think they’ve seen as tanky apologia. And maybe it is, I’m sure they’ve had their own unique Lemmy experience. Anyhow, it meant the implications of their statements are interpreted entirely differently between the two of us. This dovetails perfectly with your comment. Not necessarily that they’re a liberal, as I can only guess about their beliefs, but that my experience on different, definitely more leftist instances is likely significantly different than theirs on .world.
Yep, I agree. I think a particularly large part of it is that many on Lemmy.world are tangentially familiar with Marxism and Anarchism, but fundamentally have not yet engaged with the source material. A quick example is Marx’s view on Government, which gets confused with Anarchistic by Liberals who have only heard “Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society” and stopped there, when Marx has always advocated for a Democratic World Republic.
That’s why I try to spend a good amount of time trying to lead Liberals towards Leftist theory like Marx or Goldman, and towards Dialectical Materialism rather than Idealism. The Liberals on Lemmy.world are radical, but directionless, so actual Leftists are scary.
As for OP, they called me a “fascist” for saying voting isn’t going to move America left, outside revolutionary pressure will. I have never advocated against voting, and have also expressed my intention to vote for Biden, but OP can’t resist when it comes to punching left.
They admitted that they’re quick on the draw, which I think explains the punching, but I don’t think they’re intentionally a bad actor. I think we’re all dealing with the application of what you’ve so eloquently explained: we’re talking about the same broad topics but using words and concepts that mean entirely different things depending on the commenter or reader, plus individual personality quirks. We’re all definitely not always benevolent, patient, and reasonable, even when when we think we are.
When I put on my old “I’m liberal but think socialism is edgy cool despite misunderstanding what it is” hat from my younger years, I can see how a lot of things just in the few paragraphs we’ve written can seem really awful or scary. Outside revolutionary pressure? That’s China, right? Tanky!
Oh, I agree! I don’t think OP is an intentionally bad actor, at all really. I would, however, bet with absolute confidence that they have never actually engaged with Marxism or Anarchism, which is why it would be fantastic if they agreed to read leftist theory. It’s just frustrating to see nothing but left punching from OP and judgements on who is left and who is right without engaging with leftist theory themselves.
Your second paragraph absolutely resonates. I myself used to be a “centrist,” then a liberal once I actually grew up a little bit, then became a leftist during my college years and have been reading theory and trying to better my understanding ever since. To be called a fascist when I know for absolute fact that I stand to the left of OP just frustrates me.
That all being said, I don’t believe OP is bad-faith, just not familiar with leftism and haven’t really done any reading. I’d be thrilled if they agreed to read Marx, but they have probably mentally written me off.
What was your stake? You’d lose your absolute confidence bet. Fuck man, I have repeatedly expressed support for anarchists on here. But you know, anyone who doesn’t like tankies just hasn’t read enough theory, of course. If only they read more theory! /s
I’ve read Marx, and expressed on here, multiple times, great admiration for Marx and Engels and their writing, and even cited them at points.
Sorry that that’s not enough to make me pro-tankie. Fuck, if anything, it made me more anti-tankie.
Sorry, on second thought, you should really explain to me what I believe, you know me better than I do.
You know what? If you’ll entertain me, I’ll accept that I lost that bet. What leftist theory have you read? This isn’t a no true leftist, read more theory purity test bullshit, I am curious what you have read and what your conclusions are. As my comment said, it’s frustrating to see nothing but left punching, and calling people fascists with no evidence. Can you understand why that might be frustrating?
Seriously, I am extending an olive branch here. I want to have a productive convo with you and try to come to an understanding. If you don’t want to try, that’s fine, but I figured I’d try anyways. Like I said, I don’t think you’re a bad actor.
The Communist Manifesto, Critique Of The Gotha Programme, Theories Of Surplus Value, and various assorted letters and articles. I attempted Das Kapital, but it was dry enough and enough of a slog that I ended before the halfway point.
The Conquest Of Bread, State And Revolution, Anarchism And Other Essays, various 20th century articles and letters from socialist writers and theorists, ML and anti-ML.
Innumerable books and articles dealing with the actual history of socialist movements, especially anarchist movements, either in whole or in passing.
Okay, a very sizeable list. Not doing the whole Read more theory! bit, just suggesting Value, Price, and Profit and Wage Labor and Capital as shorter and condensed, though half of Capital probably covers more than those do. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a good read from Engels on Historical Materialism if you care.
As for Lenin, Imperialism is probably his most important work when it comes to understanding a lot of Leftists on Lemmy, IMO. Many Leftists I see form most of their foreign policy positions on the conclusions Lenin provides in it.
As a precursor, I consider myself a Leftist, not an ML, not an Anarchist. I am anti-sectarian, because I believe the path to Socialism will be different in every country. Whether that be Marxism, Syndicalism, Anarchism, the overall goal is to move leftward and collectivize ownership of the Means of Production.
Do you disagree with any of that? Do you believe it enough to consider me a fascist, or was that a one-off kneejerk reaction?
I feel like a lot of Lemmy Leftists miss Lenin elsewhere on foreign policy, though. Not that I would regard myself as pro-Lenin in general.
God, I’ve seen so much apologia for Iranian theocracy on here that it makes my head spin.
No, I don’t disagree. As mentioned before, I’m quick to snap, especially since many people on here openly salivate about the idea of a fascist takeover here in the US, because “Both sides are the same” or “It will move people left”.
I honestly don’t remember calling you a fascist (I’m sure I did, as I am quick to emphasize that supporting the rise of fascists like Trump, actively or passively, IS sitting at a table with 9 fascists, and quick to assume bad faith), but it was probably incorrect, and definitely spoken in anger rather than careful consideration.