for real, I’m pro trans rights and I still sometimes accidentally deadname Elliot Page because I have dyscalculia. if you ban me for that aren’t you being ableist?
also yes context is very important.
if I say “when Caitlyn went by the name [X], and she used [Y] pronoun, [Z] thing happened to [Y]”, I assume I will still get banned for deadnaming even though I’m innocently adding clarity to a conversation.
to make things worse, if someone is trans and gender fluid, and I call them by a name or pronoun they used last time I knew about them, now I’ve committed a crime of which I had no knowledge.
this blanket condemnation of deadnaming is just dumb. it requires nuance.
Dyscalculia is a disability resulting in difficulty learning or comprehending arithmetic, such as difficulty in understanding numbers, learning how to manipulate numbers, performing mathematical calculations, and learning facts in mathematics. It is sometimes colloquially referred to as “math dyslexia”, though this analogy is misleading as they are distinct syndromes.[5]
What does that have to do with deadnaming people? Don’t try to use a disability as a shield for shitty behavior.
I assume I will still get banned for deadnaming even though I’m innocently adding clarity to a conversation.
Yes because that’s still deadnaming, that information isn’t relevant and isn’t needed in context. It’s not necessary to dead name and misgender someone to talk about things they did before transition. It’s completely unnecessary, and in the context of your example you KNOW they don’t use that anymore so its actually worse.
now I’ve committed a crime of which I had no knowledge.
No you haven’t no one is going to get mad about simply not knowing a change has been made. Its when you KNOW what they prefer and yet you still deadname them.
this blanket condemnation of deadnaming is just dumb. it requires nuance.
I guess you’re the expert here since you Googled a condition & now you know everything there is to know about it, right?
let me break it down. over 12 years ago when I was diagnosed, among the better-known symptoms like mixing up numbers, “misremembering names” (especially those that start with the same letter/sound) was a frequently published symptom of dyscalculia (and dyslexia, FWIW):
fast forward to 2013, in the DSM-5 they changed the definition of dyslexia and dyscalculia, removed them as diagnoses and instead replaced them with a more general diagnosis: “Specific Learning Disorder”, which among other things now requires that a person is “unable to perform academically at a level appropriate to their intelligence and age.”
in my opinion, and this is just my non-professional opinion:
if I tell someone I have a “Specific Learning Disorder” they’ll generally have no idea what I’m talking about. it’s easier and feels more self-consistent to tell them the name of the condition I was diagnosed with, even if it’s outdated.
the new DSM-5 diagnosis doesn’t account for people like me who were able to excel academically despite difficulty with numbers and names. did I have to read numbers 10+ times to make sure I knew I had the right one? yes. do I still struggle immensely to do basic arithmetic in my head? absolutely. am I also a software engineer who sometimes has to work with numbers? yes. did I get straight A’s in all my math classes? yes. people with dyslexia and dyscalculia excel all the time by discovering and using their own coping mechanisms, so this diagnosis seems overly reductive to me.
again, I’m not a professional. is it possible that my symptoms which were previously attributed to dyscalculia are just a part of my ASD? sure. but I’m pretty sure if I said I have trouble remembering Elliot Page’s name because I’m autistic, people still wouldn’t know what I was talking about, and I’d have an even harder time explaining it. so there you go.
Im also diagnosed ASD and now you are trying to use that to defend deadnaming, just stop. Disability doesn’t justify deadnaming people. If you can’t remember their name just google it like you would for anyone else who’s name you can’t remember. If you know they don’t use that name anymore and don’t like when people refer to them with it, even if you can’t remember what they prefer you shouldn’t use the old name. Just don’t use the old name, its dead… let it be dead. Dont use it. Its so simple, dont use that name if you know they don’t want people using that name.
Generally when you can’t remember something, you don’t even know you’ve forgotten it. Do I think this is a lame excuse to ever deadname someone, sure! I am not defending this specific person, however as someone who suffers with similar issues, its infuriating to hear “Well if you cant remember, just Google it!”. Like, you need to understand they don’t realize they’ve even forgotten, and its will make you feel like shit to realize you’ve yet again forgotten something. (And may even feel gaslit if in some circumstances.)
Stop trying to justify shitty behavior with disabilities, its wildly offensive and ableist. Disability doesn’t justify deadnaming. Just stop.
This disability that hasn’t been in the DSM for over 10 years doesn’t mention anything about forgetting if someone transitioned. If you know the name is dead, don’t use it. For fucks sake its so simple.
You wanna know what being gaslit feels like?? When the people around you keep making up shitty excuseses for why they can’t use your preferred name and make it out like you are the bad guy for asking them to use the correct one.
I’m cis, so am happy to be corrected. But deadnaming is using the name of a trans person they no longer go by. This is sometimes done accidentally as people are getting used to the new identity of their relatives or friends, but is also done intentionally to deny trans people their identity and insist they use the name and pronouns they were assigned at birth. In the context of Caitlyn Jenner, people will sometimes deadname as an insult and insist they only do it in this specific case because Caitlyn is not a very good person. But using a person’s deadname in this way is still insulting to trans people, as it weaponizes their identity and implies they should only be respected if they conform to certain societal expectations.
Generally, using their current preferred name/pronouns (or neutral pronouns) is best. She’s still the same person, so it’s true to say Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympic Decathlon. If any other facts about the event itself were directly relevant to the conversation, that’d be ok - e.g. it would be accurate and inoffensive imo to say she won the men’s division.
But name/pronouns change all the time otherwise so it’s more normal to use the current ones. If Ms. Jones gets married and is now Mrs. Smith, it wouldn’t be inaccurate to talk about Mrs. Smith’s car breaking down last summer.
But name/pronouns change all the time otherwise so it’s more normal to use the current ones. If Ms. Jones gets married and is now Mrs. Smith, it wouldn’t be inaccurate to talk about Mrs. Smith’s car breaking down last summer.
That’s such a good and clear comparison.
With a married person who has changed their last name you can use “née” if using a trans persons birth name was for some reason needed (I can’t think of a reason why it would but be though) would something equivalent to "Mrs Smith (née Jones) be appropriate, or largely offensive?
That’s a good question! It’s definitely very rare that a birth name is entirely necessary to use in conversation, but an occasional situation comes up where I’m talking to an old friend about someone who’s since transitioned and I need to use a deadname to let them know who I’m talking about. Generally I say something like “so I ran into Denise, you knew her as Brett back in the day, etc etc etc” and just use Denise from there on. If the person I’m talking to isn’t caught too off guard by that, it’s a very smooth and natural way to handle that as a matter of circumstance and move on to using the preferred name quickly.
One potential answer would be to use “neè” which is translated as “born”. Often used in relation to a bride having changed their last name. e.g. Mrs. Williams neè Smith. That way you’d know that Mrs. Williams used to be Ms. Smith previously. Both are/were valid names - but at different times in the person’s life. Once you establish that the person has gone under a different name previously you can return to using the current name (and any change of pronoun) for all other mentions.
See? They’re just gonna turn this place into reddit no matter what. lemmy’s gonna end up just as shitty as that. Petty fascists ruining everything. Fuck off with this stupidity. And the fact that this is posted with unironic intention is absolutely stunning, honestly it does read like an Onion headline so i guess kudos for that but like, what are you even doing having power here, missing so fundamental a point as this? its just embarrassing… The Onion itself would fire you
For the record, folks: Deadnaming a trans person will earn you an instant, permanent ban.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled real-life-imitating-The-Onion content.
That seems like an easily made, honest mistake. I would hope context matters more.
for real, I’m pro trans rights and I still sometimes accidentally deadname Elliot Page because I have dyscalculia. if you ban me for that aren’t you being ableist?
also yes context is very important.
if I say “when Caitlyn went by the name [X], and she used [Y] pronoun, [Z] thing happened to [Y]”, I assume I will still get banned for deadnaming even though I’m innocently adding clarity to a conversation.
to make things worse, if someone is trans and gender fluid, and I call them by a name or pronoun they used last time I knew about them, now I’ve committed a crime of which I had no knowledge.
this blanket condemnation of deadnaming is just dumb. it requires nuance.
What does that have to do with deadnaming people? Don’t try to use a disability as a shield for shitty behavior.
Yes because that’s still deadnaming, that information isn’t relevant and isn’t needed in context. It’s not necessary to dead name and misgender someone to talk about things they did before transition. It’s completely unnecessary, and in the context of your example you KNOW they don’t use that anymore so its actually worse.
No you haven’t no one is going to get mad about simply not knowing a change has been made. Its when you KNOW what they prefer and yet you still deadname them.
No it doesn’t
wow aren’t you just a ray of sunshine.
I guess you’re the expert here since you Googled a condition & now you know everything there is to know about it, right?
let me break it down. over 12 years ago when I was diagnosed, among the better-known symptoms like mixing up numbers, “misremembering names” (especially those that start with the same letter/sound) was a frequently published symptom of dyscalculia (and dyslexia, FWIW):
fast forward to 2013, in the DSM-5 they changed the definition of dyslexia and dyscalculia, removed them as diagnoses and instead replaced them with a more general diagnosis: “Specific Learning Disorder”, which among other things now requires that a person is “unable to perform academically at a level appropriate to their intelligence and age.”
in my opinion, and this is just my non-professional opinion:
if I tell someone I have a “Specific Learning Disorder” they’ll generally have no idea what I’m talking about. it’s easier and feels more self-consistent to tell them the name of the condition I was diagnosed with, even if it’s outdated.
the new DSM-5 diagnosis doesn’t account for people like me who were able to excel academically despite difficulty with numbers and names. did I have to read numbers 10+ times to make sure I knew I had the right one? yes. do I still struggle immensely to do basic arithmetic in my head? absolutely. am I also a software engineer who sometimes has to work with numbers? yes. did I get straight A’s in all my math classes? yes. people with dyslexia and dyscalculia excel all the time by discovering and using their own coping mechanisms, so this diagnosis seems overly reductive to me.
again, I’m not a professional. is it possible that my symptoms which were previously attributed to dyscalculia are just a part of my ASD? sure. but I’m pretty sure if I said I have trouble remembering Elliot Page’s name because I’m autistic, people still wouldn’t know what I was talking about, and I’d have an even harder time explaining it. so there you go.
Im also diagnosed ASD and now you are trying to use that to defend deadnaming, just stop. Disability doesn’t justify deadnaming people. If you can’t remember their name just google it like you would for anyone else who’s name you can’t remember. If you know they don’t use that name anymore and don’t like when people refer to them with it, even if you can’t remember what they prefer you shouldn’t use the old name. Just don’t use the old name, its dead… let it be dead. Dont use it. Its so simple, dont use that name if you know they don’t want people using that name.
Generally when you can’t remember something, you don’t even know you’ve forgotten it. Do I think this is a lame excuse to ever deadname someone, sure! I am not defending this specific person, however as someone who suffers with similar issues, its infuriating to hear “Well if you cant remember, just Google it!”. Like, you need to understand they don’t realize they’ve even forgotten, and its will make you feel like shit to realize you’ve yet again forgotten something. (And may even feel gaslit if in some circumstances.)
Stop trying to justify shitty behavior with disabilities, its wildly offensive and ableist. Disability doesn’t justify deadnaming. Just stop.
This disability that hasn’t been in the DSM for over 10 years doesn’t mention anything about forgetting if someone transitioned. If you know the name is dead, don’t use it. For fucks sake its so simple.
You wanna know what being gaslit feels like?? When the people around you keep making up shitty excuseses for why they can’t use your preferred name and make it out like you are the bad guy for asking them to use the correct one.
You didn’t read my comment and it shows.
Serious question: what does deadnaming mean?
I’m cis, so am happy to be corrected. But deadnaming is using the name of a trans person they no longer go by. This is sometimes done accidentally as people are getting used to the new identity of their relatives or friends, but is also done intentionally to deny trans people their identity and insist they use the name and pronouns they were assigned at birth. In the context of Caitlyn Jenner, people will sometimes deadname as an insult and insist they only do it in this specific case because Caitlyn is not a very good person. But using a person’s deadname in this way is still insulting to trans people, as it weaponizes their identity and implies they should only be respected if they conform to certain societal expectations.
Excellent write up and thank you, from a trans person.
There’s a million better ways to insult Caitlyn Jenner, such as referring to her as hot garbage!
Nice summary.
With all due respect, what to do about pre transition events?
E.g. who won the 1976 Olympic Decathlon?
Generally, using their current preferred name/pronouns (or neutral pronouns) is best. She’s still the same person, so it’s true to say Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympic Decathlon. If any other facts about the event itself were directly relevant to the conversation, that’d be ok - e.g. it would be accurate and inoffensive imo to say she won the men’s division.
But name/pronouns change all the time otherwise so it’s more normal to use the current ones. If Ms. Jones gets married and is now Mrs. Smith, it wouldn’t be inaccurate to talk about Mrs. Smith’s car breaking down last summer.
That’s such a good and clear comparison.
With a married person who has changed their last name you can use “née” if using a trans persons birth name was for some reason needed (I can’t think of a reason why it would but be though) would something equivalent to "Mrs Smith (née Jones) be appropriate, or largely offensive?
That’s a good question! It’s definitely very rare that a birth name is entirely necessary to use in conversation, but an occasional situation comes up where I’m talking to an old friend about someone who’s since transitioned and I need to use a deadname to let them know who I’m talking about. Generally I say something like “so I ran into Denise, you knew her as Brett back in the day, etc etc etc” and just use Denise from there on. If the person I’m talking to isn’t caught too off guard by that, it’s a very smooth and natural way to handle that as a matter of circumstance and move on to using the preferred name quickly.
Thank you for explaining and the example.
Np, thank you for asking!
One potential answer would be to use “neè” which is translated as “born”. Often used in relation to a bride having changed their last name. e.g. Mrs. Williams neè Smith. That way you’d know that Mrs. Williams used to be Ms. Smith previously. Both are/were valid names - but at different times in the person’s life. Once you establish that the person has gone under a different name previously you can return to using the current name (and any change of pronoun) for all other mentions.
It’s possible to deadname any person who changed their name for any reason.
Calling someone by the name they had pre-transition.
what in the world is deadnaming?
Using the birth name of someone who took a new name after transitioning
ooooooh, gotcha. Thanks for curing some of my ignorance
See? They’re just gonna turn this place into reddit no matter what. lemmy’s gonna end up just as shitty as that. Petty fascists ruining everything. Fuck off with this stupidity. And the fact that this is posted with unironic intention is absolutely stunning, honestly it does read like an Onion headline so i guess kudos for that but like, what are you even doing having power here, missing so fundamental a point as this? its just embarrassing… The Onion itself would fire you
The Onion doesn’t deadname people either, because they’re decent people. You just want to be transphobic because you think it’s edgy.
fuck you