If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Apart from the fact that they do have uniforms for soldiers (except for during that little hospital “operation” some months back), you see that Israel is guilty of all of this too, right?
Eg being held in “administrative detention” without charge is being held hostage, harming or threatening innocent civilians so they put pressure on their government is terrorism. Killing AI-identified “targets” while they’re at home with their families because it’s easier is targeting innocent people every day. And withholding the necessities of life from civilians on purpose is against international law. Nice uniforms though yeah.
Should we take away Israelis’ rights by your logic? Or should we not punish innocents for the actions of people who claim to speak for them?
Basic rights are not conditional. Not sure how I can explain that to you if you don’t understand that already. Jesus christ.
Prisoners taken in a warzone under suspicion. Administrative detention. Call it however. No diplomatic status. Citizens of no legitimate state. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They don’t get to have a state. They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza, often rewarded, always revered. Hamas is indefensible and unredeemable for what they’ve done to millions of people of have lived and died in Gaza without any prospects, having turned every institution into modalities of Iranian-vassal terrorism. Give me a break.
Again, nothing to do with war, NOT prisoners of war. Hostages by another name. How did you not know about this?
They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza Israel, often rewarded, always revered.
Also true this way around. Israel has been committing war crimes for 7 months straight now.
Go read the ICJ preliminary order and the express finding that Israel does prosecute war criminals. And guess what? It’s true. The Qatari state/ pro-Trump/pro-Russia media diet you are gorging yourself on does not cover it at all.
Hamas are war criminals…in all pursuits.
No, that’s not also true about Israel. You are looking at a small isolated thing, which I think you are portraying unfairly and incompletely, but fine we can disagree.
But Israel has a legitimate government that has stabily for decades provided essential services to tens of millions of people.
Glad you agree Hamas must go.
What’s your plan to make that happen? How would you destroy the tunnels?
You’d do the best you could. That means ordinance and coordinated evacuations and warnings, knowing that the civilian population is going to follow Hamas around up above like one of those artic foxes stalking a tundra shrew below the snow, so they can win Martyrdom™ prizes, paid in rial, no doubt. Such disregard for their own side’s civilians is unprecedented in warfare. International law is based on precedent.
Sorry did you just totally ignore the administrative detention thing? We can talk about this stuff afterwards. Do you see how these people are hostages?
No not at all. Hostages? Of who? No one wants to trade anyone for anything, except Hamas.
I see how there exists in Gaza a pervasive, deranged culture of support for terrorism and willing “martyrdom,” a wilfull disregard for life or law, material support of which justifies administrative detention. Easily. Do you not?
I shared this link with you a couple of messages back. Do you agree that being imprisoned indefinitely, not during an explicit time of war (ie it has happened for many many years now, these are not prisoners of war) and with NO CHARGE is equivalent to being a hostage?
Like you totally ignored all points of fact raised by me and didn’t even know that Israel detains Palestinians without charge all the time outside of active war?
I’ll tell you why I didn’t fight you on these points: the topic of conversation is Palestinian statehood. NOT Hamas. What you are doing is classic hasbara bullshit, if in doubt and people start talking about human rights for Palestinians, shift the conversation to Hamas. You think or at least imply that the actions of a few can detract from the need for basic rights for every single human being. As I said, if that was the case then Israelis lose them too.
And guess what? Hamas are terrorists and I agree they are shit. Now if you could face up to the various despicable crimes of Israel we might actually get somewhere here.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many. The side that actually punishes war crimes is redeemable. The side that rewards war crimes is not.
I understand that in Israel there is a political movement that fosters a culture of wiping things under the rug or maybe pardoning war criminals like Trump did and would do again in America. But every dead kid in Gaza rests squarely at the feet of Hamas. Seems like it’s about 3% of the population that is so hardcore for Hamas that they are ready to die for the cause with their loved ones in tow.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many.
Thank you. This is very bad and I’m sure you can see that not all have been punished, in fact I think the WCK attack is one of the only ones recently that have?
But Israel is still allowed at the UN. They should be in the UN despite all of the (IMO) horrendous things that the country is doing and has done. Since Hamas would not be the representatives of Palestine at the UN (so complaining about them is not relevant), why should Palestine not have full UN membership? Why do they not deserve a proper seat at the table?
It would be like saying Israel doesn’t deserve membership because settlers are terrorists and the IDF and the current government supports them. I don’t understand how you can apply the logic to Hamas and Palestine but not there?
If you answer nothing else, please answer this: do you think that the state of Palestine has the right to exist?
Sure, in the West Bank. Gaza is forfeit. It’s a collapsed state, lawless, unincorporated territory, irredenta, free to whoever can establish order.
Even from just a physical standpoint, the very foundation of Gaza’s cities and towns were turned to Swiss cheese by Hamas. Nothing is stable. Gaza has zero capability or capacity to rebuild itself and literally nobody else cares enough about Gaza to do it other than Israel. Qatar only sends money if Hamas is fielding soldiers to kill Jews, the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being “martyred.”
Gaza is not forfeit, it can be rebuilt. But anyway, if you agree to a state in the West Bank, then you should have no problem with Palestine having full UN membership, right?
the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being “martyred.”
This comes across dehumanizing and frankly, disgusting. They are not “shields” by living in their fucking houses. They didn’t build the tunnels did they? Why should they die because of them?
Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.
Literally would be possible if not for the US’s veto.
They shouldn’t die because of tunnels. They should evacuate and get somewhere there isn’t tunnels.
Aren’t there tunnels basically all over? And how the hell would they know where there aren’t tunnels? Leave your home and go to the middle of nowhere amidst constant bombing and chaos with thousands of others so Israel can bomb it’s way down to subterranean tunnels?
“Your apartment block has been marked for destruction, please climb over the bodies of your neighbours and calmly make your way to the designated safe zone… by which we mean the zone that is probably safe for now”
Some dystopian shit right there. Everyone went to Rafah and now look
Apart from the fact that they do have uniforms for soldiers (except for during that little hospital “operation” some months back), you see that Israel is guilty of all of this too, right?
Eg being held in “administrative detention” without charge is being held hostage, harming or threatening innocent civilians so they put pressure on their government is terrorism. Killing AI-identified “targets” while they’re at home with their families because it’s easier is targeting innocent people every day. And withholding the necessities of life from civilians on purpose is against international law. Nice uniforms though yeah.
Should we take away Israelis’ rights by your logic? Or should we not punish innocents for the actions of people who claim to speak for them?
Basic rights are not conditional. Not sure how I can explain that to you if you don’t understand that already. Jesus christ.
Prisoners of war don’t get an arraignment and bail. What are you even talking about.
I’m not talking about prisoners of war anywhere there.
Prisoners taken in a warzone under suspicion. Administrative detention. Call it however. No diplomatic status. Citizens of no legitimate state. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They don’t get to have a state. They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza, often rewarded, always revered. Hamas is indefensible and unredeemable for what they’ve done to millions of people of have lived and died in Gaza without any prospects, having turned every institution into modalities of Iranian-vassal terrorism. Give me a break.
Here you go, something fun to learn: https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
Again, nothing to do with war, NOT prisoners of war. Hostages by another name. How did you not know about this?
Also true this way around. Israel has been committing war crimes for 7 months straight now.
Why only 7 months and not more? Did something change Israel’s intentions to spend more time on commiting war crimes?
I could say hamas has been commiting war crimes for years now. Would that be wrong?
Yeah I mean we can keep going back if you like, but I was just talking about the current war, obviously.
It would be totally right. Why stop there? They have not allowed a free and fair election since they were voted in. They are tyrants.
Go read the ICJ preliminary order and the express finding that Israel does prosecute war criminals. And guess what? It’s true. The Qatari state/ pro-Trump/pro-Russia media diet you are gorging yourself on does not cover it at all.
No, that’s not also true about Israel. You are looking at a small isolated thing, which I think you are portraying unfairly and incompletely, but fine we can disagree.
But Israel has a legitimate government that has stabily for decades provided essential services to tens of millions of people.
Glad you agree Hamas must go.
What’s your plan to make that happen? How would you destroy the tunnels?
You’d do the best you could. That means ordinance and coordinated evacuations and warnings, knowing that the civilian population is going to follow Hamas around up above like one of those artic foxes stalking a tundra shrew below the snow, so they can win Martyrdom™ prizes, paid in rial, no doubt. Such disregard for their own side’s civilians is unprecedented in warfare. International law is based on precedent.
Sorry did you just totally ignore the administrative detention thing? We can talk about this stuff afterwards. Do you see how these people are hostages?
No not at all. Hostages? Of who? No one wants to trade anyone for anything, except Hamas.
I see how there exists in Gaza a pervasive, deranged culture of support for terrorism and willing “martyrdom,” a wilfull disregard for life or law, material support of which justifies administrative detention. Easily. Do you not?
This is what “administrative detention” means: https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
I shared this link with you a couple of messages back. Do you agree that being imprisoned indefinitely, not during an explicit time of war (ie it has happened for many many years now, these are not prisoners of war) and with NO CHARGE is equivalent to being a hostage?
This is the classic defense of Hamas by the way. Disregard all points of fact, talk about how evil Israel is.
Like you totally ignored all points of fact raised by me and didn’t even know that Israel detains Palestinians without charge all the time outside of active war?
I’ll tell you why I didn’t fight you on these points: the topic of conversation is Palestinian statehood. NOT Hamas. What you are doing is classic hasbara bullshit, if in doubt and people start talking about human rights for Palestinians, shift the conversation to Hamas. You think or at least imply that the actions of a few can detract from the need for basic rights for every single human being. As I said, if that was the case then Israelis lose them too.
And guess what? Hamas are terrorists and I agree they are shit. Now if you could face up to the various despicable crimes of Israel we might actually get somewhere here.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many. The side that actually punishes war crimes is redeemable. The side that rewards war crimes is not.
I understand that in Israel there is a political movement that fosters a culture of wiping things under the rug or maybe pardoning war criminals like Trump did and would do again in America. But every dead kid in Gaza rests squarely at the feet of Hamas. Seems like it’s about 3% of the population that is so hardcore for Hamas that they are ready to die for the cause with their loved ones in tow.
Thank you. This is very bad and I’m sure you can see that not all have been punished, in fact I think the WCK attack is one of the only ones recently that have?
But Israel is still allowed at the UN. They should be in the UN despite all of the (IMO) horrendous things that the country is doing and has done. Since Hamas would not be the representatives of Palestine at the UN (so complaining about them is not relevant), why should Palestine not have full UN membership? Why do they not deserve a proper seat at the table?
It would be like saying Israel doesn’t deserve membership because settlers are terrorists and the IDF and the current government supports them. I don’t understand how you can apply the logic to Hamas and Palestine but not there?
If you answer nothing else, please answer this: do you think that the state of Palestine has the right to exist?
Sure, in the West Bank. Gaza is forfeit. It’s a collapsed state, lawless, unincorporated territory, irredenta, free to whoever can establish order.
Even from just a physical standpoint, the very foundation of Gaza’s cities and towns were turned to Swiss cheese by Hamas. Nothing is stable. Gaza has zero capability or capacity to rebuild itself and literally nobody else cares enough about Gaza to do it other than Israel. Qatar only sends money if Hamas is fielding soldiers to kill Jews, the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being “martyred.”
Gaza is not forfeit, it can be rebuilt. But anyway, if you agree to a state in the West Bank, then you should have no problem with Palestine having full UN membership, right?
This comes across dehumanizing and frankly, disgusting. They are not “shields” by living in their fucking houses. They didn’t build the tunnels did they? Why should they die because of them?
They have a long way to go on anti corruption and human rights before they deserve membership.
They shouldn’t die because of tunnels. They should evacuate and get somewhere there isn’t tunnels. Just like the other 98% of the population has done.
What about China? Myanmar? Venezuela? Tons of others. This is clearly not a requirement.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter/chapter-2
Literally would be possible if not for the US’s veto.
Aren’t there tunnels basically all over? And how the hell would they know where there aren’t tunnels? Leave your home and go to the middle of nowhere amidst constant bombing and chaos with thousands of others so Israel can bomb it’s way down to subterranean tunnels?
“Your apartment block has been marked for destruction, please climb over the bodies of your neighbours and calmly make your way to the designated safe zone… by which we mean the zone that is probably safe for now”
Some dystopian shit right there. Everyone went to Rafah and now look