Trying to get an idea of how NTs see us. I know that when I see autistic people, I see someone that’s like me. Obviously, that’s not how NTs perceive us, so what do we look like to yall??
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Having bridged both worlds, here’s how they are viewed as described by a few people that stuck with me all these years.
The first one I “go to thought” was more than one person is “awkward.” Some even describing them “out of step, socially.” Imagine a clock that is running fast or slow, but you have mentally compensated because generally, you can adapt depending on other clues. But they are always off, and you might have to warn others ahead of time.
Another comment was how autistic personalities are in that “uncanny valley of behavior” where people notice something is off, and it can be frightening but they are not sure why. Since autism is a spectrum of behaviors, which approach depends subjectively on the viewer. Kids, for example, can target autistic kids, and because they are developing socially, will group in “us” and “not us.” Autistic kids are “not us,” and the target of bullying. A lot of teachers know autistic kids just by how they are treated by others. “You’re too weird,” was something a lot of kids might say with developing language skills. The may not know WHY they hate a certain kid, but know that they DO. And “something is wrong.”
Personally, I see autism as some kind of evolutionary response to a civilization that is growing faster that humans can compensate. In order to get actual insight, one has to be “out of step,” lest they just end up trapped in the normal static of everyday compulsion. Like any other evolutionary advance, nature is “trying out” various things. Most will lead to dead ends. A few will adapt in other ways, and some will flourish in a new niche with new types of diversity. I have no proof of this, but I think it’s more than “well, we define autism differently now.” Yes, there were always people who were “touched by fae” or whatever convention was explained back in the day, but something has really changed. I personally think this and gender fluidity is a positive sign of things to come.
I really enjoyed this response. Thank you.
I am friends with an autistic person, and all I see is a slightly awkward guy. Which is totally fine to me because I am super awkward myself so that probably has little to do with his autism. We like to talk about our shared interests. He is more like me than different, even though I am ‘NT’.
When you say you are ‘NT’ do you mean non autistic or are u using the semi-official meaning in context of neurodivergence?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity
You don’t need to have a disability or difficulties to recognize your not as similar to other people as they are to eachother .
I was using it to say that I am ‘neurotypical’, since that is how the OP said it. I put it in quotes because I don’t really even know if anyone is typical lol. I just mean I don’t have any diagnosed conditions besides Generalized Anxiety Disorder, which I don’t think counts.
If I used the wrong term, I am sorry, just let me know a better way to phrase it! :-)
No no, you didn’t use it wrong its just that there are multiple interpretations and the term is only recently gaining traction in psychiatry.
What i am trying to say is you may not consider yourself to be autistic which is how the medical world Classifies us.
But you sound like you have a high chance of being neurodivergent which is the group we ourselves classify ourselves and it includes any neurological diversity including classical: autism, adhd, dyslexia and many many others, including people with no discernible disabilities, difficulties or challenges.
In yet other words, you may not be one of us the way you perceive us but you might totally be one of us the way we perceive you.
I wholeheartedly recommend reading that wiki-article i send.
I love this question, thanks. Would you consider reposting in AskLemmy, maybe? Or would that attract too much bullshit into this community?
I really hope more people will answer this, it’s very helpful for me. I’ve isolated myself more than usually lately, and have let my anti-social autism bits take over. So in real-life company I’m … not good company currently. It used to be better before I went into hiding for 3y, and I’m ready and would like to start reconnecting with people again. Knowing about other peoples’ experiences really supports this step. So NT person, if you are here and not sure if you should answer, please do.
Would you consider reposting in AskLemmy, maybe?
Done! 👍
Knowing about other peoples’ experiences really supports this step. So NT person, if you are here and not sure if you should answer, please do.
This 100%. Don’t be shy or worry about being rude or offensive if you don’t mean to.
I see it during moments of high stress or panic, and how they react. A lot of people in my workplace are on the spectrum.
How I handle it is usually the same with anybody. Give them space to recollect, and ask for next steps. Sometimes I break their tasks into smaller bites. Sometimes I switch their task to something with a different modality, like less mental work or more research work.
While I want to say that I treat people differently who I know are on the spectrum, I kind of don’t. Everyone needs space, some more than others.
How would you describe how they react?
Sometimes silence. They’re still processing. Like if I say something, and then silence for more than five seconds. I’ve learned with them that it’s okay to just wait for them to say something, even if it’s a full 20 seconds of silence.
Sometimes they agree but they aren’t thinking it through. Like I ask for a task but it’s vague, they repeat the task back but not asking expected followup questions. The example of “file the report”, I was expecting them to respond with, “Do you want in a PDF? Emailed? Over chat?” If they fail to say that, it tells me to stick around and be ready to support them.
Both things are behaviors everyone has. Just folks on the spectrum may take a lot longer to piece everything together, and that’s okay! The workplace is set up for that flexibility.
Delay in auditory processing. I know it can be really tricky for me. Sometimes the meaning of what somebody says to me arrives seconds after the sound. If I am too eager to get everything correctly, right after they start speaking a voice in my head goes ‘Pay attention now so you don’t miss what the other person is saying!’ (especially when people tell me their name while I try to remember also looking at their face 😅 ). The more nervous I am the stronger this will become. When somebody gets impatient or angry at me my head will just start to repeat random words and I might need a full day to even become functional again.
It’s funny to think that there’s a world full of people who don’t have that. It explains why most other people just talk in groups (?) and everybody seems to know what to say next without getting confused?
I’ve been doing freelance work since ever - because I also had no idea that some companies really could accommodate for my communication issues. So there - if you want a competent remote translator feel free to message me (but don’t phone me 😜 )
Haha, thank you! I wouldn’t say the company as a whole is accommodating - it’s more of a cultural bit/something to educate the people you are working with! Because I absolutely have to define the boundaries and teach other departments i work with this as well.
You’re awesome 😎
At work they can sometimes be a bit overexcited to see me, I don’t mind, but can sometimes feel a bit awkward when it’s a bit more attention than I want.
Good point that I can relate. I know a therapist who is way overexcited to see me. We have great talks over philosophy, sociology or political issue in mental health. But, each time, it’s like a birthday party for this person.
sounds nice ❤️
It’s nice and respectful.
Probably, because we are more socially isolated, than other people.
Speaking as autistic about how i perceive others perceiving me. I have an above average and rather specific social awareness (not skill) so i so pick allot up.
People are unique and come in all flavors and types but in general i can categorize them as below from best to worst.
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Is unknowingly neurodivergent with their own challenges and can work easily with me. To them i am just normal.
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Is an NT with knowledge about the spectrum, they treat me like i am normal and otherwise look away or whisper a explicit hint, sometimes ask extra questions to make sure all is good and clear.
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average NT, will start treating me like normal but by every strangeness they witness will become more skeptical about my intelligence and performance. After learning i am on the spectrum some will either slowly become NT with knowledge or they will start avoiding me.
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Narcist NT, does not care, either someone is a useful tool or you are an obstacle, sometimes both. In that way they treat us the same as NT’s except if there is early Miscommunication they move you to the discard pile very quickly
For kids: People will bully you for being different, avoid you to not also get bullied or they are already your best friend.
This is one of my favorite responses in this post. I really like the categories for how people interact with you Thank you!
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i think it’s tricky to get a blanket reading because autism can look so dramatically different from one person to the next. i was diagnosed last year (AuDHD) and have since been learning how varied autism can be across different demographics and comorbidities. when i’m stressed, overworked, and/or overloaded, i tend to withdraw to trigger my hyperfocus. a recent new hire in my department who is pretty clearly also autistic has been driving me nuts because when he is stressed, overworked and overloaded, he tends to try to control everything around him with a hyperfocus on what everyone else is doing, instead of focusing on his own work. to the NT’s in the group, i doubt they would think to put him and myself in the same category.
Sounds like me and my ex husband. Not a great combination.
Continue talking about the Topic after the initial Question is answered, just going on and on. Is something i find is common with a Frend of mine
Honestly this is a really common occurrence when i a autistic person ask a basic question to most neurotypical co-workers. They often start to explain an entire procedure unrelated to my thoughts with the answer somewhere sandwiched within.
I needed a quick answer to continue to work, by the time They’re done talking i don’t even remember what i was doing.
But to be fair, as you mentioned this person is a friend its possible that your friend has difficulty knowing what to talk about and by asking a question you set a topic and display interest in that topic. Either that or your question triggered a special interest.
NT here. I’m interested to learn more about this. I see that when you ask a question, you’re just looking for a concise answer. Is that fairly typical for people who are autistic or something that tends to vary a lot?
I have some possible answers for why NT people tend to communicate like this. If you want to hear them, let me know.
It mostly applies to a work scenario, i presume it still comes down to a personal style but because communicative challenges are typical its more likely such a thing is noticeable/annoying because we don’t understand each others social cues. Which i do express or at least try to express.
I believe the reason is often this:
The result of my work is more or less the same, but I am looking at and analyzing the screen differently, doing the job my own way.
I am rarely doing just my task; I am also actively engaged in improving my work, flow, efficiency. I generate new ideas for other tasks that require the same or similar details.
I kind of need to do this because it keeps me mentally involved with the bigger picture of what our team is supposed to accomplish, in abstract. Without it, I get burned out very quickly.
This means that often I am doing Task A, have been all morning. But I overhear something about Task B, suddenly I see something where if I put A and B together with E and Q I already had, I could accomplish something that helps with Tasks W and Z. (I am skipping letters to indicate that it’s not straightforward, personal deep logic, aka without proper lengthy explanation and proof on paper, no one can follow me here.)
But I hit a roadblock with my thoughts, mind you, I am still working and my primary focus is on just A.
This roadblock is often a seemingly minor detail. If it’s one way, it would be perfect; if it’s the other, I can throw my idea in the bin without feeling bad about it. For every great idea I have, a hundred bad ones are binned. I also avoid telling people my ideas until I am certain; I’ve been burned too many times by just spitting them out.
Because of the way my personal mind is built (autism-ADD), I am well aware I will forget any non-completed thoughts. The logic is too complex to scribble down without it including the whole puzzle. When I have a full picture, I can write it down by omitting all the deeper details so it becomes compatible with general NT logic, and I can move to figuring out how to explain this in the next meeting.
So, to know the answer to my blockade, which will act as the decider to continue or move on, I formulate a very specific question for information, purposely omitting the context of the depth that I am currently inside of in my head. Not only because I want it to be finished before bringing it up but also because I am still doing A, and others might perceive my style as getting distracted from my job rather than going beyond my task to do my job better.
“Does ‘this’ work like ‘specifically that’?”
It can be answered with a simple yes or no, but it rarely is, and I need to put both my task and my thoughts in a sort of pause state to not lose focus during the entire conversation.
I wish people would be more aware of MY social cues, that I ask broad questions to engage in broader conversation but want a very short, specific answer to meticulously specific questions.
This is just my perspective. My workplace is inclusive, but I have not gotten to talk about this specifically with our team. I’d love to hear your thoughts about it; it could definitely help when I do talk about this.
Good context and explanation. Thanks. After reading that, I’m less sure my reasons apply as much to your particular situation, but I’ll throw them out there anyway:
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They assume you don’t just want the answer but why that is the answer. For me, I tend the learn and remember better if I understand why X is correct. If I’m just told X, I’m more likely to forget that answer later. If I have the context around the answer, I understand it better and can recall it better. Similarly, they may think you have (or will have) similar questions, so are showing you how to find the answer to those related questions.
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They don’t realize your question is precise/pointed and think you will have follow on questions, so are answering the potential related questions.
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if the question doesn’t have one right answer or they think their answer is right but could be wrong, they are providing background sort of to say “This is how I came to this conclusion, but you may come to a different one or there may be alternatives.”
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they just like to hear themselves talk and are happy to have a break from their work.
Aside: when I said “they assume you don’t just want the answer…” or similar statements, I don’t mean that they are literally stopping and thinking about whether or not that is what you want. It’s probably subconscious and their default way of answering questions. Understandably, this leads to your frustration: even though you are giving a clear, well thought out question, they aren’t stopping and thinking about why you asked the question that way. Instead they are answering in their default mode.
This definitely gives me some additional context to understand NT’s around me.
I tend to default to assume its either they are trying to relate it to the task i am doing at hand (which can still be true) or 4. Which is a little condescending if there were actually trying help.
Haha. Re: option 4, I was being glib. A more charitable way to say it is that they want to connect with you and spend time talking with you (and they don’t realize you are busy and want to keep working on your task). A lot of NTs will use time talking to coworkers as a way to recharge. To them it’s a nice break from what they’re doing.
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I really only know when it’s on the heavier end of the spectrum, and generally those people come across as tense/on edge and incredibly serious.
incredibly serious
omg, how funny 😆
I do relate, when I go very much ‘inside of myself’ I can feel it. Tense and serious describes it well, and at that stage I am probably obsessed about some abstract problem way out there of anybody else’s concern, usually to avoid something right in front of me 😆 But I promise there’s a sense of humour in there somewhere, really!
Like normal people with more quirks. I will say that experience has lead me to believe that sometimes those quirks require a bit more patience/tolerance in extended company.
I’m friends with an autistic guy who’s very good at what he does and we share some interests, but he tries too hard to talk about what he wants to talk about and unfortunately it’s pushing others away.
he tries too hard to talk about what he wants to talk about and unfortunately it’s pushing others away
I had a friend like that. He would talk about whatever he wanted regardless of what anyone else wanted. We could be silent, and I’d bring up a topic. He would completely ignore it and start talking about whatever he wanted. If I pointed it out, he would either ignore that or tell me why I’m wrong for wanting to talk about my topic. It got progressively worse to the point I had to cut him off and block him on all communication avenues. It sucks because he was a longtime friend that wasn’t always like that. I think his success in academia made him a bit grandiose and entitled.
Lmaoooo my friend is also from academia so our situations may be 1:1
If so, you have some serious patience.
Edit: being considerate in case my joke was too much
To me there’s a few general signs, I don’t read into them though. When talking with someone and I need to go, they won’t pick up on social queues that I’m trying to wrap the conversation up and I need to be more direct. Playing board or video games and someone is very meticulously thorough. Having unusual views on sensory things (for example, a friend genuinely thought that mustard and mayo tasted similarly). Just slightly unusual mannerisms that require interacting differently sometimes, usually just being more direct.
a friend genuinely thought that mustard and mayo tasted similarly
What a ridiculous thing.
Mayonnaise obviously taste like lettuce.
Mayonnaise just tastes like dense water.
I don’t know any autistic people in my life, which is statistically unlikely, so I guess I just don’t notice.
I don’t think I’ve ever “clocked” an autistic person. I’m not very perceptive with social cues, though.
What does “‘clocked’ an autistic person” mean?
Saw someone and thought they were autistic. I.e. I can’t realize unless someone tells me and I don’t have any close acquaintances that have told me.
But I also don’t know if that’s typical or not.
Honestly, and please take this with a grain of salt, this reads as you being autistic. You said you were bad with social cues, and I personally find it harder to “clock” other people as autistic unless I’m trying too.
It can look like nothing’s going on behind those eyes. But there is. It just doesn’t leave the body the same way.
I track everybody with the same method, their logic trees. Everybody’s logic is true to themselves, and if you can figure out said logic (which is not easy), it’s incredibly easy to figure out a lot of things about a person.
-So, having known 2.5 people with officially diagnosed autism (one autism, one asperger’s, one somebody’s kid), and combined with the lurking in this community (both pre and post lemmy), I’ve noticed an odd thing about autistic logic trees.
-Each individual branch on their logic tree is almost always something that a normal person might have. The difference is what a normal person would have that an autistic individual almost certainly either does not have, or has a toddler/child version of. The vast majority of these missing/underdeveloped branches tend to be what are considered right-brained behaviors. It’s like autistic people are colorblind, but in regards to right-brained function.
-Meaning roughly, anytime a normal person would use such things as emotion, it appears to me that an autistic person replaces said response with blunt logic. As in, they evaluate things on a flat scale of good/bad, with disregard to whether emotion was originally involved. One of the behaviors that I notice from autistic people is that they almost always choose a method that is guaranteed over a method that isn’t, regardless of whether or not it actually matters. This causes odd responses whenever a normal person “likes” something that is just flatly bad in an autistic individual’s mind (or hates something that is flatly good), and also when the guaranteed methods aren’t supposed to be used often/repeatedly.
-A portion of autistic people have figured this out, to mean that many individual preferences have approximately jack shit to do with intelligence or anything else. I might not be able to discern the difference between these people and a “neurotypical”. They’d just be people who do things slightly oddly to me (which is basically everybody).
-A portion of autistic people appear to have learned that liking “bad” things means that you are stupid. That’s what it sounds like to me when they call all NTs stupid and start making assumptions about NT behavior and reasoning. It sounds like they’re projecting.
If yall want some tips about interacting with people here are some
-The average person really is very stupid. But also very easy going. Tell them in advance that you’re not judging them even if it looks that way.
-Tell people in advance that you suck at people skills. This is a totally normal thing to suck at and people won’t be surprised.
-Allow people to be wrong. Mistakes is how people learn and how evolution works. Also, when you get to the top of human knowledge, you will realize that you’re still missing something and the only two tools you will have for such an occasion is doing random shit and exploding shit to see what happens.
-Separate assholes from “neurotypical”. Those are not the same. The average person doesn’t know how to deal with things they haven’t encountered (that’s you, and your job to teach them). Assholes require exactly zero personal responsibility and for everything to be exactly their way and no other way.
On another note or possibly rant,
there’s somebody I know who I swear has autism, and nevermind the rest of the symptoms that match, just his logic tree is totally wack.
-such as Gurren Lagann is politically offensive because of the flamboyant gay guy, Cowboy Bebop was a product of its time (this is a common saying for racist things for those who don’t know), “text to speech ass bitch” (accounting software learning video for work), “I’m locked out of pokemon games” (he didn’t own a switch) (also he’s bought one since), split the speakers from his computer with exactly three 3.5mm splitters… There was a time when he thought that seeing an AnimeNewsNetwork episode review for an anime specifically meant that the anime was garbage…(they do episode reviews for everything)
-Even his personal preferences are super wacky, he thinks the X-Files plot episodes were the best part, 2nd season of Jujutsu Kaisen is boring, etc…
-I really don’t know what to do with this guy, not because all of his logic/preferences, but because he deadpan refuses to recognize that he isn’t perfectly right.
I have to go back and read your description of how we come across again, but I’m going to comment on the advice a bit:
The average person really is very stupid. But also very easy going. Tell them in advance that you’re not judging them even if it looks that way.
I think if I said exactly that – “I’m not judging you, even if it looks that way” – and it was interpreted as genuine, that message given verbatim is friendly. But I don’t predict it would be interpreted as genuine.
What’s a good way to phrase this so a person knows I’m not being snarky?
Tell people in advance that you suck at people skills. This is a totally normal thing to suck at and people won’t be surprised.
They don’t believe me. It goes like this:
“I have autism”
“Oh, well I had no idea!”
“I know, but I’m not so good with understanding people. What you’re seeing here is scripts I’ve practiced to get through the world”
“You seem perfectly fine to me”
“I know, I’ve practiced the scripts a lot. But I can’t practice for all possible scenarios like I practice for the commonly-used scripts.”
“Well you’re handling this conversation pretty good”
“That’s because I’ve had it hundreds of times”
Allow people to be wrong. Mistakes is how people learn
But isn’t someone informing them also how people learn? I know that pain can be necessary to knock a person into a new paradigm, but just getting basic info seems like it could be as painless as “actually magnesium won’t constipate you. That’s wrong. It’ll give you the runs”
I do understand that something like “If you keep drinking and being late for work, you’ll regret it” doesn’t really come across to somebody and they probably need to feel the pain of those choices to learn new choices.
Also, when you get to the top of human knowledge, you will realize that you’re still missing something and the only two tools you will have for such an occasion is doing random shit and exploding shit to see what happens.
On the other hand, human knowledge is far deeper and wider than any human can absorb. It’s worth making a study of. So many people have been through so many things and written about it.
Separate assholes from “neurotypical”. Those are not the same.
Sure, makes sense
The average person doesn’t know how to deal with things they haven’t encountered (that’s you, and your job to teach them).
That’s a good point. If you think about it, an average autistic encounters the autistic-neurotypical interface far more often than an average neurotypical does.
For a neurotypical, they might have 1 out of 10 interactions in their day being with autistic people, and other nine being with other neurotypicals.
For an autistic, the ratio could be reversed. 9 out of 10 interactions or relationships they have is with a neurotypical.
That difference, if not recognized by us, could lead us to over-estimate your awareness of how to successfully navigate this.
So yes, I’ll make more of an effort to educate, and try to keep in mind the other person does this far less often than I do. I guess I have been unconsciously assuming they had the same expertise as me (and getting offended when they didn’t enact that expertise to accommodate me, as I enact it to accommodate them). Thank you.
Assholes require exactly zero personal responsibility and for everything to be exactly their way and no other way.
The average person doesn’t know how to deal with things they haven’t encountered (that’s you, and your job to teach them).
“I have autism”
uh…don’t open with this…
-The perception of autism has been ruined by being popular. Since very few of the nonphysical autism symptoms are unique to autism, you can maybe try showing the bits that are normal first and explain at some point when they notice differences? I myself did not know there were physical symptoms until I read the Wikipedia entry.
What’s a good way to phrase this so a person knows I’m not being snarky?
-A large portion of comedy is just timing. As such inappropriate timing will bomb really hard. It’s also quite common for a person’s personality to not match their physical appearance or language use. If you mention things early and often, and not after issues arise, it should be okay. Also, mention if you have trouble with tones and inflections. (This made me think of the Johnny Carson tomahawk bit, where he kept his mouth shut for a solid half minute before saying his line)
But isn’t someone informing them also how people learn?
-There are multiple ways to learn, and that’s actually one of the less common ones, especially if it’s just a flat “don’t” without an actual answer. The most common method being things exploding in your face.
-It’s rather easy to learn from prior knowledge, but all of human knowledge had to be discovered at some point, which means somebody had to fuck it up repeatedly to get there, because they sure as hell didn’t get perfect completion on the first try.
