I am exploring Lemmy right now and what I see is very worrying to me, but I also don’t understand wth is going on with some instances here. I don’t know if it’s smart to post this, but here we go.
I am partial to Marxist and anarchist ideology, but lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me. Is it a parody? Some content is fine and some of it is insane.
On the other hand, beehaw looked super inviting from the outside and I even applied to join them. Then, I looked closer and that instance’s moderation looks totalitarian and rigid in the other way. (I understand why they blocked lemmygrad though…)
I’m seeing this impact other communities in different ways and there’s some kind of witch hunt happening on both sides…
I want to interact with people that can respect each-other and that can hold open-minded discussions about any topics without devolving into some tribal war.
Edit:
I realize my post is not a simple question… Let me clarify some thoughs:
-I do not mean beehaw is far-right. The just seem strict and that’s their right.
-I worry profiles can “inherit” the bad reputation of instances they interacted with and get pre-emptively banned.
-People are used to reddit and tend to centralize. Is the “just switch community” really an option?
-English is far from my first language and I might’ve judged things too quickly/harshly so take my criticism with a grain of salt.
Lemmygrad is full of unhinged tankies. I just automatically assume anyone posting there is a child, either physically or mentally.
Beehaw have their own rules, and that’s fine. While not my cup of tea, I won’t tell them how to run their instance. I respect those rules when I post to their communities. I particularly enjoy their technology and gaming communities.
Other instances are pretty alright. The vibe on lemmy.world is pretty great, which is why it’s my home instance.
Edit: inb4 this comment also gets brigaded by tankies chomping at the bit to call me a “liberal”
I definitely agree on respecting how other instances moderate themselves and I’m happy I can choose what I interact with. It’s just so new and it’s hard to find out what the vibes are. I hope I chose well with this one.
This comment is basically just reaffirming my choice to make world my home instance too, although I am probably gonna explore some of Beehaw’s communities especially if they have more engagement. Any you’d recommend?
Honestly all the beehaw communities are quite nice, so it depends on your interests but you can’t go wrong with any of them imo.
Outside of agreeing to the rules (modlogs are open to see), knowing who they block, and having some trust in the instance admin, joining any instance is fine and you can follow almost any instance’s communities.
Also the hosting country of the instance, both from a speed perspective and a privacy perspective. At the moment, your data is in the hands of that host, with no way to actually delete it, and no way to port it to another instance.
Edit: also take into account the owner and support of the instance in regards to server power upgrades. Lemmy.world’s owner for example has been great in dealing with the huge influx of users during the past week.
Edit: looks like lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works is also affected, due to open sign up policies. https://lemmy.world/post/145337
I get there is issues between beehaw and lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.
But what does this have to do with lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works? As mentioned here: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-usI’ve browsed some of beehaw’s communities last night and there was a lot of terrible posts from outside being made there.
My guess is they fear defederated users from bad instances making throwaway accounts on lemmy.world to troll them from here and circumvent moderation.
I understand why they did that, but it seems very extreme and shows shortcomings in lemmy’s moderation tools.
We are now tainted by the unhinged.
I don’t know how I feel about this since there’s no real good answer…
Maybe lemmy.world should limit sign-ups, but that could be seen as being coerced by beehaw and give them political power they don’t deserve.
Something better would be to have community-level moderation tools and also tools for instances to limit interaction instead of outright nuking it. Lemmy needs more development quickly or it may suffocate.
lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me
…
[Beehaw’s] moderation looks totalitarian and rigidYes. They’re not on the opposite sides politically, but are on opposite ends of the spectrum for tolerating wack-a-do nonsense.
Yeah, not opposite politically. You described it better.
and how exactly is beehaw totalitarian? ive been very explicit in my language while using beehaw since it was a tiny miny server. is it perfect? oh hell no ive got a lot to say but totalitarian?
One indication is that they defederate several hundred instances, far more than any other Lemmy instance does, and some for no apparent reason and with nothing at all objectionable.
Yeah, they just defederated lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works.
Although, they did give reasons. Trying to boil down their wall of text, those reasons am to boil down to their perceived difficulty in keeping heehaw a safe space when those other two Ibarra have own registration policies.
I’m a total noob when it comes to this federation stuff, but what does this mean for me, an account-holder of a 3rd party instance (lemmy.world) but likes to subscribe to a lot of the beehaw communities. Will they no longer show up to me? Do I have to jump through additional hoops (I’m really trying to not have to juggle multiple accounts across instances) if I want all my info in one place?
I had the exact same question and got some answers in this post.
The short story seems to be:
- users in beehaw.org no longer see new posts and comments created by users of lemmy.world
- users in lemmy.world no longer see new posts and comments by users in beehaw.org
- existing posts and comments from beehaw.org (from before the defederation) are still accessible and interactable by lemmy.world users, however only other lemmy.world users will see those replies.
I honestly love that this is how defederation works, you can still see the content and even respond to it, it just doesn’t reach that original instance.
I can share the perspective of why I joined beehaw instead of the other services.
I used to be on the side of free-speech maximalists, but after seeing communities crumble because of toxicity driving out people, I also came to see the same problems with social media that the beehaw folks see.
On anon/pseudo anon places, the social structure to correct anti-social behavior does not exist like in real life. So to create an environment that’s tolerable to the majority of people, you have to isolate and punish the bad actors.
I’m past the age where i want to be spending time on things and places where people are hateful and mean all the time.
Freedom of speech is never freedom of consequence. And if that consequence is that nobody wants to listen to you, well that’s on you.
Freedom of speech is by definition freedom from consequence for speech.
“Yeah you can criticize glorious leader, you have free speech. You’ll just spend the rest of your life unemployable and die/in a gulag”
Nobody is implying that a lack of freedom of speech means they put a gag on your face preventing you from speaking. A lack of freedom of speech means harsh consequences for speech.
Freedom of speech is from consequences from the government. That means you cannot be prosecuted for insulting politicians for example. But you can certainly be sued in civil court for the same thing.
You are 100% incorrect and are confusing the first amendment of the united states with the concept of freedom of speech.
Why is the government special? Are you implying powerful corporations can’t deprive people of rights or oppress people? That is very incorrect and there is a mountain of evidence for this. Are you implying that communities can’t or haven’t shunned people and ruined their lives for saying reasonable or true things? That is very incorrect and there is a mountain of evidence for this.
Your original claim that “Freedom of speech is by definition freedom from consequence for speech” is simply impossible to implement without limiting someone else’s freedom of speech, as well as their right to ownership over private property.
There’s no such thing as “freedom from consequences” for anything you do, including speech.
If you’re going to make wild claims please substantiate them.
How does person A saying things result in person B being unable to say things or own private property?
Consequence of insulting the business that employs you is that you’ll get fired. To limit the consequences here is to restrict the property rights of the business to hire and fire the individuals they hire.
More realistic scenario, if you’re an insufferable person spewing nonsense all day, people in your social circle (and those near you physically) will distance themselves from you. That’s the natural consequence of anti-social behavior.
There is no speech without consequence. To have speech without consequence is to expect cause without effect.
The fediverse it’s not the US
I never said it was? My entire point is that the concept of freedom of speech is not just one united states law.
So we at rblind.com blocked lemmygrad pretty much right away, for the reasons stated above. But I’m starting to wonder if the future of Lemmy instances might not be organized around topics. I’m not sure that, if Lemmy takes off, moderating a “general interest” style instance is sustainable. I’m also not sure everyone centralizing onto one or two general instances is a good idea. Once we get out of alpha, the intent is for us to be an instance focused on posts and topics of interest to the blind community. We disabled community creation for that reason; I don’t want someone signing up with us and creating the FunnyAnimalPictures community, because as a blind person, I just don’t want to be their admin, not because that content is bad in any way. Parcially sighted folks who want that content can federate with whatever instance has it, and I can trust those people to moderate and admin that community. Federation seems to be as useful for better distributing administration and moderation workloads as anything else. My real worry is that beehaw is too general and open. From the description, I don’t really understand what it’s for, or who should be there. At least I know the purpose of lemmygrad, and what kind of people I might find on it, making the “block” decision super easy.
Beehaw is for some general communitys like technology, news and other big stuff. They didn’t create anything specific. So it is only for these basic communitys and everything else is federated.
I think that it is for people that don’t know where to create account - you start with these basic communitys everything else you can find throughout Feddiverse.
I hope that in future there will be some breaking of instances to smaller more specific instances.
I’m so excited for the possibilities of the accessible custom interfaces and improvements to the platform your instance’s users will likely create. I totally agree that we’ll likely have more topical instances as things stabilize, there will be lots of alt accounts, and those local feeds will be fun!
This is something that I’ve found really nice about the Fediverse. It seems like both instances don’t really work for you; in that case, you can always find another that might fit your interests! Even if you have the ability to see the communities from each instance, you don’t have to participate. Like another poster said, I’ve made lemmy.world my main instance because I enjoyed the rules and vibe stated there.
Just replying to recommend the Lemmy.world instance. Seems like a nice place to me.
Obviously, you interact with communities from other instances, but it’s like having a home in a friendly neighborhood. You can visit elsewhere, but you’ve got a friendly base to come back to.
This is a great analogy. There are parts of my city I love visiting, but I’m glad to get back to my neighborhood at the end of the day.
Defederation might be a good thing, and I don’t think we should assign a taboo to it.
What I believe, is it establishes a direct chain of responsibility. Instance owners are responsible for what thier users say and do on. This incentivises moderation, but unlike other systems, defederated instances don’t cease to exist. In fact, they could thrive, and even mutually contribute to other instances. A new insurance could even preemptively defederate from instances they know won’t gell well, allowing communities to build without facing threats of harassment.
I believe, it gives the opportunity for Lemmy users to create a diverse collection congruent communities. Not everything can, or should, be consolidated into one great house.
I don’t think we should defederate, instance owners shouldn’t be able to control what the users see. All this would accomplish would be a more centralized lemmy, which at that point why even federate.
I believe if you want to get around that issue, you can run your own instance?
I will do that when I can afford it.
From what I hear, for a tiny instance you can run it on a Raspberry Pi or a little $6 a month Digital Ocean VPS ☺️
Funny. I haven’t even noticed as I am not subscribed to anywhere this is taking place. The only thing I’ve seen is Gaywallet’s fork essay and a few crazy comments about the Lemmy dev’s I’m an open communist info.
I’m no political buff and don’t want to become one. I think most ideologies are oversimplified nonsense that does not encompass the needs of the true majority in any instance. They all require compromises that encompass parts of other opposing theories. However, a person committed to a community centric ideology sounds like the perfect fit as the developer of a federated social media platform.
I’m also new here so I cannot really answer your question. But are you saying Beehaw leans far right? Because I thought they wanted to foster a very welcoming and supportive environment (even disabling downvotes) and I thought they even blocked some instances which are too right for them?
nonono, It’s not that. I haven’t lurked there for very long, but it seemed that they were trigger-happy on bans from what I gathered. I don’t have examples at the moment and the modlog feature doesn’t seem to work well…
Ah got it, ok sorry I misunderstood you. But yes, this sounds believable. As I understand they have a very clear vision what is wrong with social media and believe that only very strict moderation can fix these problems. If this is right or wrong I cannot really say…
It definitely is an interesting and there might be some merit to it. I’m just worried. Let’s say I post in lemmygrad for any reason and then comment something unrelated and neutral on a beehaw post. Will I be silenced because of that first instance’s bad reputation? Maybe I’m thinking too much.
Good question. But I guess only the beehaw admins know the answer to that. But from my understanding so far they would only silence you if you actively spread negativity - but I might be wrong.
It doesn’t seem like they’ve been doing things like that at all.
I don’t agree with the removal of being able to downvote. Both up and downvoting serves a purpose. Would you support a community that only allowed downvotes?
I also think downvotes have an important purpose, but I see how the downvote button can be easily abused.
Beehaw doesn’t lean far right at all. They blocked lemmygrad for being authoritarian (i.e. pro North Korea), not for being on the left.
From one of Beehaw’s stickied posts: “We want to explicitly make a nice little corner of the internet where we can hide from racist, sexist, ableist, colonialist, homophobic, transphobic, and other forms of hateful speech.”
FWIW, I don’t think there are any ‘far right’, or really any right-leaning Lemmy servers at this point. None that I’ve seen, at least.
there is one. backchodi. Its a hindu nationalist (and hence islamaphobic, racist, casteist, queerphobic instance)
You can find some in beehaw’s list of blocked instances.
that’s good to hear 😉
Yeah, hopefully it stays that way, but with popularity it’s likely we’ll get all types. I suppose some asshole will come along and setup “christo.fascist.world” or something at some point.
Yeah you’re probably right. But the good thing is with lemmy the “community” can decide what is acceptable behaviour and what not. If the admin of an instance finds another instance abusive they can just defederate it. And if the users of this instance don’t like that the other one got de-federated they can just switch. (or at least that’s my basic understanding so far…)
True enough, but that doesn’t stop people like that from having a place to congregate, and then nothing else is stopping them from creating logins on different servers and brigading other communities from there. There’s no way around that though with the Fediverse and Lemmy being designed how it is.
That’s the beauty of the fediverse, a true diversity of opinion.
Reddit and other sites are wary about fringe communities and ideologies, and will ban them if they feel threatened. Just look at /r/ChapoTrapHouse or /r/The_Donald. Regardless of what you think of those groups of people, they have a right to spread their views.
No matter how much you wish to stop the spread of harmful information, it will spread as long as there are people who want it to.
People absolutely do not have a right to push ideologies that harm, dehumanize, or diminish other people.
They do, they just have to deal with people who think their ideas are worthless. You can even make laws against ideas you don’t like, but they’ll be even less effective than drug prohibition. Just look at China for a great example of that.
So in your world it is acceptable for me to say that you’re an evil person for disagreeing with me and should be shot where you stand?
That’s absolutely ridiculous, and actually a crime in a decent number of the countries. And if that’s not what you’re saying I think that you don’t actually know what your free speech maximalism means, because people who believe those things and say those things exist and they want to hurt people.
Yes, what is anyone going to do to stop you? That’s why America has free speech at the very first right defined in the bill of rights.
The fediverse allows anyone to set up their own instances with their own rules and beliefs. It’s simply the consequence of freedom of speech.
Those people and ideas you want to ban will always be there. If you make it so people have to hide them, it just makes it easier for the ideas to spread. It’s better if they are openly criticized and refuted rather than swept under the rug.
Then explain why i cant scream FIRE in a movie theater, or call a mall and tell them I’m going to bomb them, or walk up to someone on the street and say “give me all your money or i’ll blow your brains out”. After all its all just speech isn’t it?
You can, you’ll just face legal consequences for disturbing the peace or threatening others.
Notice how you get in trouble after you say something. The idea that a government can stop you from saying or thinking something is silly. How would you even enforce such a thing?
That’s why the rights in the American’s constitution are considered “inalienable”, because even if there were (illegal) laws made to stop you from saying or thinking something, your right to do so is innate and can never truly be taken from you.
“Yes, what is anyone going to do to stop you? That’s why America has free speech at the very first right defined in the bill of rights”
“You can, you’ll just face legal consequences”
Am I taking crazy pills?
If you make it so people have to hide them, it just makes it easier for the ideas to spread. It’s better if they are openly criticized and refuted rather than swept under the rug.
This is the classic argument of “banning nazis just makes them stronger, we have to debate them away!” No, that’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works.
Who said anything about debate? You mock and demonize them openly. You make it not cool to be a nazi. Look at what Chapo Trap House does for example. They aren’t afraid to mock these clowns for their moronic ideologies.
Banning it and taking the “holier than thou” approach just makes it cool and edgy to be extremely far right. It’s extremely easy to get people very upset with almost no effort, so of course that’s going to be what edgy kids gravitate towards. Same reason the edgy kids were “Satanists” back in the 70s and 80s. It wasn’t that they were persuaded by satanism, it was easy to get a reaction from the Christian fundies and took no effort at all.
If you allow people to make a fool of themselves it dissuades others from doing that behavior.
I agree with this, but what you’re missing is that you don’t need them to be here to make fun of them. Screenshot their shit on whatever hole they’ve squandered off to, and mock them with that. You don’t need them to be a part of our spaces to mock them.
