i don’t think this one is very balanced so please help with that if possible, thanks
First of all, I’m so happy that someone else is posting in this community! Welcome!
Since you asked for help with this class: I’m not convinced about it. It alternates between features that are borderline useless with others that are utterly broken.
Subliminal Affinity gives you proficiency in two of the best skills of the game and a 2nd level spell for free once a day. Despite that, it doesn’t give you any other benefit in battle, so it’s very dependant on the type of game that’s being run - It will find great use in a social campaign, less so in a campaign focused on combat.
Repose and Partial Delve are barely classifiable as ribbon features. Repose allows you and your party to benefit from a worse long rest in 6 hours. I’m not sure which situation would require me to use this feature instead of spending 8 hours and do a long rest, as normal. Partial Delve is very flavourful, but mechanically speaking, it only allows you to gain the benefits of a long rest after 12 hours, which is worse than just doing a long rest, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve here. You could replace the entire shtick with a free cast of Dream, maybe?
Memory Palace is uneventful, but it’s good. Charmed and Frightened are two of the most common status conditions in the game, but they aren’t overly common. When it matters, you’ll be glad to have this feature, but it’s not going to break the game by any means.
Dreamcaster is bonkers. It’s a save-or-suck effect that completely obliterates an encounter if you’re allowed to pull it off. Forcing any number of creatures of your choice to be unconscious for 1 entire minute would allow your party to kill the affected creatures way before they can reroll the saving throw to end it. Sure, most enemies at that level have multiple legendary resistances, but I’m not sure if a feature should be balanced on the fact that it won’t realistically land.
The mechanics are unclear: as written, the dream only ends after 72 hours or if you exit it, which means that taking damage outside of the dream (or, potentially, even dying) won’t end it. As far as I can see it doesn’t even require concentration, nor does it force you unconscious, so you can cast a spell beforehand and the use the feature to put everyone to sleep.
By comparison, Dominate Monster, which is an extremely powerful 8th level spell, requires (alongside an 8th level spell slot, of course) concentration and allows the target to repeat the save every time they take damage.thank you so much for this feedback! i think i know how to fix some of these, but i’m still very unsure
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i think i’ll keep Subliminal Affinity unchanged. it’s powerful in social contexts, but i think that’s exactly what i want this cleric to good at
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i don’t really know how to fix Repose while keeping it related to making others fall asleep. i have a couple ideas, but i’d like it to be more interesting than just casting sleep. will keep working on
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i envision Partial Delve being an alternative to normal long rests. i think it can be made useful by cutting down the time dilation a bit, so 1 hour in subconscious = 8 hours instead of 12 hours. i want it to be distinct from just casting dream because in lore, the subconscious realm isn’t just dreamland. it’s a physical dimension with actual inhabitants. someone who knows this can use it for their advantage, using it for information gathering and such. i’d like to make it more mechanically interesting though
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i will keep Memory Palace the same
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Dreamcaster is definitely what i’m most concerned about. what you said about the party just killing the unconscious enemy is a great point, and i think i can fix it by making the feature less controllable. most of the overpowered uses of the ability could probably be fixed if you cannot select certain creatures to remain unaffected. so if you use the ability, then ALL creatures within 300 ft. must make the wis save or fall unconscious, including allies. the ability already forced the cleric to also remain unconscious to maintain the dream, so i just clarified this a bit. here’s the new version of Dreamcaster, which i think might still be pretty busted if used correctly but less reliably overpowered:
At 17th level, you can not only access the Subconscious Realm, but force others to enter it. All living creatures within 300 ft. of you must make a Wisdom saving throw; those who fail immediately fall unconscious unless they are undead or immune to being charmed. You also fall unconscious, and you cannot allow specific creatures to remain unaffected. You, alongside every creature who fails the save, enter a shared dream in the Subconscious Realm for up to six hours (48 real hours), where the targets are unable to move, speak, or take actions unless you allow them.
During this time, you can shape the environment of the dream, creating landscapes, objects, and other images. You can choose to end the dream at any time, but if you exit the Subconscious Realm this way, then all other creatures immediately wake up. You also suffer one level of exhaustion if the dream is prematurely terminated this way.
Although the targets cannot take actions, they can repeat their Wisdom save on each of their turns. If a creature escapes the dream by succeeding the Wisdom save, then they jolt awake with little to no recollection of the Subconscious, only remembering fleeting images and fractured memories. If they exit the Subconscious because six hours passed or because you prematurely ended the dream, then they retain all memories.
You can use this feature again by completing a long rest after exiting the Subconscious.
That’s just going to cause very disgruntled noises among all the party members. I’m playing a martial, I’m already at a natural disadvantage compared to full casters, and I’m forced to fall asleep mid-battle because the cleric wanted to use they new feature? I’m a caster concentrating on something, and I’m forced to lose concentration on my spell?
And what if some party members fall asleep, alongside some enemies, and the party decides that keeping them asleep is a more favourable outcome than waking them all up? Then you have some party members clearing the encounter while the others wait for their chance to wake up, which doesn’t sound very fun. I would accept being put to sleep by an enemy, that’s the nature of the game, but I’m not going to take a free day to join my party, just to have my friend use their feature and force me to doomscroll Instagram while the remaining party members play the game as intended.
Keep also in mind that the unconscious condition is a death sentence, even for just one round. Unconscious being taking all attacks with advantage, and on a hit, it’s an automatic crit. The paladin will just dump their highest smite and call it a day, the fighter, barbarian and warlock will have a field day, and so will the rogue, etc… There’s a reason every effect that forces the unconscious condition is (a) situational, and (b) ends as soon as the target takes damage.
i see, that makes sense. i’d say that it’s on the player playing this cleric to not use the ability in a stupid way, since it obviously has catastrophic consequences for everything nearby, but i could totally see it being used in combat to try (and fail) to shut down the encounter. do you think this could be fixed by allowing combat to continue within the dream, with the added stakes that dying in the dream means dying in real world? and of course taking damage in real world allows you to wake up. this way, even if the ability is used, those who fall unconscious still can fight for their lives against the other unconscious people while simultaneously trying to escape to return to their vulnerable bodies.
but i could totally see it being used in combat to try (and fail) to shut down the encounter
If you don’t want the feature to be used in battle, you should change it, because as written, it’s clearly a battle-oriented feature. Changing the casting time to 1 minute, for example, would work. Or maybe make it only work on unconscious creatures.
do you think this could be fixed by allowing combat to continue within the dream
That would be very difficult to manage. You would need a second battlemap for the dreamworld, but the cleric can change the environment at any time, with no action required nor limitations on what they can actually do; additionally, the different time flow means that a turn inside the dream equates seven(-ish) turns in the real world, which is a nightmare to keep track of.
I’m not a fan of features that require so much DM-fiat to work. The feature text should have clear rules, boundaries, limitations and set the proper expectations for how it works and what it can actually do. It also helps set the correct expectations from the player that chooses to play your class. As-is, I’d have a hard time picking it over any other cleric class, because I wouldn’t know what half of the class’ features are meant to do.
It’s also difficult to give a proper evaluation or recommend specific fixes because I have no idea of how the Dream World is supposed to work.
The other user, @[email protected], mentioned that the feature is very reminiscent of Tel’alan’rhiod, which I agree. You could take inspiration from that to craft your feature. In case the similarities are coincidental and you don’t know what TAR is, it’s the dream world from Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time. People frequently come and go into TAR while sleeping, but only skilled or trained individuals can control the flow of the dream and use it to their advantage.
Characters can enter TAR, travel to a different place, and exit TAR from the place they travelled to, which allows them to “fast travel” to different locations; they can teleport, talk to, and spy individuals who also happen to be in TAR; they can examine the environment (which is a distorted mirror of the real world) to try and secure informations about the place from its mirrored copy in TAR; they can also, of course, fight and die in TAR, like you proposed, and skilled dreamwalkers can use their abilities to shape the dreamworld to their advantage, which could translate into codified lair actions that the Cleric player can use (or maybe perform a contested check every round, and the winner is the one who can use the lair action that turn).
These are just random ideas, I honestly don’t know what your plans for the dream world are.
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I love the thematic elements of this subclass, but the mechanics could use a little work.
To be honest, I think the emphasis and mechanics around the Subconscious Realm are a bit over-specific for a general subclass. If you had a world or campaign that included the Subconscious Realm as part of the lore, it would be great, but it might be prohibitive for a GM to try to shoehorn that into their otherwise-established world. Having some general lore in your description is great, but it needs to be abstract and flexible enough to make sense in a variety of worlds. Again, if this is for a specific campaign, you’re fine to be as specific as you’d like.
For your specific features:
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Subliminal Affinity - I would remove the Perception proficiency. This feature is already very strong, and Perception doesn’t fit the theme of the subclass. Insight and a free 2nd level spell is both strong and thematic.
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Channel Divinity: Repose - I’m not sure when or where you’d use this feature. It’s less beneficial than a long rest. Instead, consider making it only an hour long–in addition to the benefits of a short rest, grant the extra healing and removal of an exhaustion level. I’ll also note that this is an odd use of Channel Divinity, which is typically something more combat oriented (though not always). This is a decent feature, but might be worth being its own ability, once per long rest.
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Partial Delve - like I said before, this is a really lore-defining feature that I can’t see many GMs welcoming. I’m also not sure what this feature is supposed to do mechanically, as I can’t find any information of what a character might do in the Subconscious Realm or why they’d want to be there, unless the GM starts fleshing that all out. And unless your whole party is this domain, it would either do nothing or your character would have a solo sidequest every long rest, which doesn’t sound fun at a table. I’d consider replacing this feature (maybe move the short-rest version of Repose here instead).
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Memory Palace - as another commenter said, it’s not flashy, but it’s effective. Though keep in mind that other subclasses all get a damage boost at this level (either adding their Wisdom modifier to cantrips, or bonus damage to weapon attacks). It’s not necessarily a bad thing to buck that trend, just keep it in mind for balancing.
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Dreamcaster - in addition to being lore-defining, this is quite powerful, even for 4th-tier play. If I’m understanding it correctly, the cleric could use this feature to put a bunch of enemies to sleep (though also themselves). And everyone takes a level of exhaustion when waking up. The mechanics feel complicated, and the aspect of the Subconscious Realm would need to be fleshed out to make more sense. I think there’s potential in the save-or-take-exhaustion mechanic, but it could be simpler (e.g., “Choose any number of creatures you can see, who must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failure, the creatures are subject to an intense weariness and take a level of exhaustion”).
I get the impression you’re really into the Subconscious Realm idea (I’m getting Tel’aran’rhiod vibes, which is cool). But the whole idea might be better suited for some sort of module (which might include some dream-related feats, spells, etc.) rather than a subclass. If you want to explore that more, consider making an adventure module or something in that vein for it.
Here are a few thoughts for features that might fit the overall vibe:
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While casting Sleep isn’t terribly exciting on its own, why not play around with enhancing the Sleep spell? For example, a Channel Divinity option could involve increasing the number of hit points the Sleep spell effects, and/or at higher levels, targets put to sleep by your Sleep spell take psychic damage each round that doesn’t wake them up? Extending the duration? Removing the V/S/M requirements? Lots of options here to make Sleep useful beyond tier-1 play.
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A feature that allows you to detect any (intelligent) sleeping creatures nearby. Situational, but could be a good additional feature for a level where you want to add a little more.
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Just before completing a long rest, the cleric can use the Sending spell without expending a spell slot, but the target of the spell must also be asleep or the spell fails.
Hope that’s helpful!
thanks! this is really helpful.
you’re correct that the mechanics are overly specific for this setting. this subclass was made for a homebrew setting and fits that lore accordingly, so i don’t expect it to be adaptable to any other world. the subconscious realm as a whole is pretty important in my campaign since i basically use it as a plot device for lore drops and stuff. i think in that context, abilities like Partial Delve make more sense since there’s an actual reason to go there.
i really appreciate your suggestions and will definitely use them to make the subclass more mechanically sound. thanks again
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