• Izzgo
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    271 year ago

    Would someone kindly eli5? The dictionary definition was not helpful.

    • @kenblu24
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      1 year ago

      You know captchas? They’re there because bot activity can be really hard to moderate. So those are there to test if there’s an actual human talking to the website: They try to give a test that only a human can do. The problem is, now that machine learning models can actually do some of those things, like read handwritten words and identify cars vs bikes, we need a new test that only humans can pass. Also, these captchas are annoying to users, and if you’re a website that runs off of clicks and ads, a captcha might piss off a user and they leave, and you get to show fewer ads.

      So, the people running a website have a need to stave off bot traffic, but also not piss off real, legitimate human traffic. One solution is “attestation”, which basically means getting someone else to attest, or plead on your behalf, that you are running on an unmodified device. In a perfect world, Apple would like their phones to be so incredibly locked down that you can only do things that they allow. One of those things would be using an iPhone to do bot stuff. So, since Apple controls what software runs on your iPhone, they can (in theory) prevent you from running bot software. This means that iPhone users would be (in theory) guaranteed safe human traffic. But if you’re a website owner, how do you know that the request is actually coming from an iPhone? Simple. Request the device ID from the iPhone, and ask a question that only an iPhone would know the answer to. This is essentially what web attestation is. From the article: “a way that web servers can demand your device prove it is a sufficiently ‘legitimate’ device before browsing the web” and “your treatment on the web depends on whether Apple says your device, OS & browser configuration are legitimate & acceptable.”

      This has significant implications for the openness of the device you use, as well as the control that you as a user have over how you use the web. The primary example would be adblockers. Apple and Google get to say whether you’re human or not, so if you have an adblocker, Google can just say “no, I won’t attest that this user is human” and you’ll get treated differently. It’s not difficult to imagine a world in which Youtube would just refuse to serve users who aren’t 100% trustworthy, given their recent adblocker experiment. And this is the case for every link in the chain, from the device, to the OS, to the browser (and other stuff you might have on your system), and browser extensions. There are concerns that this will hurt competition in all of these spaces. Built your own computer? Well now you might be considered non-legitimate. Developed your own browser? Haha, definitely can’t get attested.

      tl;dr: Instead of captchas, ask the device if it’s real and unmodified. See above for why this is bad.

      Also see #why-is-attestation-bad-generally from the article. In summary, be especially concerned if you:

      • Use an adblocker or extensions that Google or Apple might not like
      • Built, repaired, or modified your computer/laptop/phone/smart fridge
      • Use an older, less-supported computer/laptop/phone, or one from a smaller brand/manufacturer
      • Like open-source software
      • Like competition & free market for the hardware/software of computers and phones and browsers
      • Don’t like the monopoly of Chrome
      • Don’t like Cloudflare or similar services

      Worth noting that if all this comes to pass, these people aren’t stupid. They will toe the line to make sure not too many people are pissed off. But if you are pissed off, better make noise now, as they almost certainly won’t change their minds later.

      • @[email protected]
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        51 year ago

        Hypothetically, I wonder if it would be possible to spoof this if you also had an actual unmodified attested device. Something like a device in your home network that would, if you have an iPhone as well as an unattested computer that you actually want to use: get request for attestation from a website, send that request to your iphone instead, as if your iphone had opened the page and was receiving the request (or just have the iphone also try to load the page), intercept the signature the iphone sends to the website, and have your computer send it to the website instead.

        • @WhoRoger
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          11 year ago

          Probably doable on some devices, but also easily blockable, as the authorisation features are generally built into the hardware already. Remember the expectation/worry is that you’d only be able to use closed-source browsers, so any way to go around this would essentially require cracking. So this could end up being a cat and mouse game between the big tech and crackers. Just to visit a web site.

    • @[email protected]
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      171 year ago

      Basically, the idea is that a server can refuse to serve you (or degrade your experience with captchas/heavier restrictions) unless you (your device) complete a “challenge”. This could be something like the browser (through a system API) checking some device details like

      • root/admin
      • unlocked bootloader
      • extensions (either bad extensions or something like an Adblock)
      • VPN (potentially “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear”)
      • installed apps (Adblock via DNS like blokada,
      • device emulation
      • TPM (generate secure key to make sure device is “real”)
      • OS state (heavily modified?, untrusted OS?)

      etc. Basically making sure the “environment” is clean and not tampered with (trusted).

      The problem is with what defines a “trusted” environment. It could start at just making sure the device isn’t rooted (like Android’s Safetynet/Play Integrity check; most people don’t root their device & don’t/won’t care, also easily justifiable since it can be a security vulnerability because the device is “wide open”).

      Then, like the article mentions, the device makers (Google (phones, chromebooks), Microsoft (Windows, Xbox), Apple (macOS, iOS, visionOS, etc), Meta/Facebook (Oculus), etc) could change their terms for attestation and deny approval on stricter, potentially anti-consumer criteria such as device age (forcing you to buy more things).

      • @[email protected]
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        71 year ago

        It’s also important to note that Google is doing this already as well. It’s almost impossible to use Google with my VPN provider as I’m slammed with 5 captchas every Google.

        • @[email protected]
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          11 year ago

          I don’t think sites can request attestation yet, for vpn ips it’s usually that the ip/ip block has shown “suspicious” behavior & got reported either manually or picked up by bot sensors.

          (Now of course it’s also bad to let Google and friends be the arbitrator of good and bad IPs, famous for the destruction of truly self-hosted email (among other things))

    • exohuman
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      91 year ago

      Basically, a website can block you or treat you suspiciously based on whether or not this “feature” says that your computer or browser is approved and unmodified.

      This can become a problem as more sites adopt this. You can be using a 2 year old device and suddenly your bank stops working because your device no longer shows up as approved. It can be used to artificially enforce obsolescence. The fix would be to buy a new device.

      You could be using Linux or a 3rd party browser and many websites will become unavailable to you because they can never show up as approved and unmodified. It basically breaks the open web.

      • Izzgo
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        31 year ago

        Thank you. I did see that, but was left wondering more exactly. Is it the same as cars locking features behind a subscription?

        • @kenblu24
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          41 year ago

          No, for the majority of people, you probably won’t notice any differences on the surface (unless you use an adblocker). This is one of those things that will hurt you in more invisible and insidious ways.

          Also, read more closely? that section is literally dedicated to the bad stuff that might happen.

          If you must have a comparison to something car-related, it’s closer to being forced to do a credit check before buying a car.

          • Izzgo
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            11 year ago

            Also, read more closely?

            Will do :) I jumped to the car example because it’s been in the news recently. I hate these invisible, insidious, harmful developments in the world.

        • MeowdyPardner
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          21 year ago

          I think a better comparison re: cars would be if inspections could only be performed by Ford or GM and the inspection rules were made by them instead of the government. They could say: we’re no longer passing inspections on models older than 5 years old, or if you used non-approved oil or filters the toll roads are gonna block you. They could put ads on your infotainment system and say you won’t get an inspection pass if you block them or replace the infotainment system with something else. Did you bypass the subscription lock on your heated seat? No more highway driving for you.

      • @jimmycrackcrack
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        31 year ago

        I didn’t make it clear but I was referring really to all the bastards of the world, generally here, Apple included for doing this, but them and all the other bastards doing bastard things too.

    • RBG
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      31 year ago

      Of course not. Do they have a reason to?

  • @reddig33
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    51 year ago

    Not really the same thing.

  • @Streetdog
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    11 months ago

    deleted by creator

  • @[email protected]
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    -11 year ago

    Is there a real life issue that people faced or this is all theories? I haven’t seen any sites blocking me yet with ads blocker used?

    • @WhoRoger
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      11 year ago

      This thing is a proposal, so no of course not. Once it goes mainstream and you won’t be able to use web sites unless you use either Chrome or Edge on a device no older than 2 years, it will be difficult to scale this back.