The phrase “free speech platform” sounds like a giant, enormous dog whistle. Which is a damn shame, because I used to enjoy that place, and now I’m not sure I will anymore… Don’t want to jump to conclusions, but is there ANY self-described “bastion of free speech on the internet” that is not a cesspool full of awful people? Just one?
I’m a white, heterosexual cis male in my 40s not living in the US, so this does not affect me in any way, shape or form directly, but it still feels just icky, unnecessary and tone-deaf. Guess I’ll post photos of my succulents and my goofy dog just on Lemmy from now on, bummer…
I think it is a dog whistle , here in India there are people who openly talk of genocide , homophobia and what not and call it their right to speech and expression !
The “funny” thing is that the moment those people have power they don’t have a problem going against free speech (see having books banned (in the US) or trying to stop people from voicing their opinion (Meloni in Italy))
It’s all just exploiting the tolerance of the system in order to make it less tolerant That’s why completely unchecked free speech is a bad idea as it will eventually lead in its complete demise
is there ANY self-described “bastion of free speech on the internet” that is not a cesspool full of awful people
When you have a “free speech” policy, you attract principled free-speech advocates who want to discuss issues rather than shouting down unpopular opinions, a few people who are well-behaved and intelligent but write about ideas that the majority may find offensive or horrifying, and a whole bunch of people who got banned everywhere else for being rude and disruptive.
The best-moderated such place that I’ve seen had a policy requiring politeness and high-effort posts, which kept out the third group.
The second group can be tough to tolerate. Sometimes they’re interesting, sometimes they’re a Holocaust denier who cites references, and you look up those references and they appear to be real papers written by real academics, and you know this is all wrong but you’re not a historian and even if you were you don’t have time to address every issue in this guy’s entire life’s work and you just wish the topic never came up. But you can’t keep out the second group unless you compromise your principles as a member of the first group.
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Yes, that’s exactly what it means. Often, participating is very unpleasant. (I had to leave the Holocaust denial discussion - that one was too personal for me.) And I still think we ought to respect places where people do get to talk like that.
There is good and bad, and good people can’t assume they’ll always be able to fight harder or yell louder. On the contrary, bad people tend to be better at fighting and at yelling. So if good people fight and yell, they give up the long-term advantages that they may have. Those advantages are that appeals to our common humanity sometimes work, and that peaceful coexistence makes everyone safer and wealthier. But to have these advantages, you need to be willing to tolerate people you hate and hear them out. After all, that’s what you want the other side to do.
(Sometimes that doesn’t work and you do have to fight, but if you’re in that position then you’re already competing on the enemy’s terms. The Allies didn’t win World War II because they were the good guys. They won because they had more guns, and next time the bad guys may have more guns.)
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Who gets to decide what thoughts, beliefs, and groups are allowed to be tolerated?
Is there a quantifiable threshold for what is and what is not tolerable?
Does that threshold change over time?
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I don’t understand how one can advocate for censorship, yet be incapable of defining what speech should be restricted.
I suppose it makes sense for somebody unable to express their belief system to also be unable to consider more than one viewpoint.
Yes there is. When your freedom directly invades the freedom of other people you are passing the threshold of what is tolerable.
When you form a group of people and declare it’s free speech to discuss how women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, for example, you aren’t just voicing any random opinion. Words have consequences and words can hurt people. You are past the line of tolerance because you actively invade other people’s freedom.
I can only imagine that thinking it’s freedom to allow these talking points to freely flourish online stems from the naive believe that nothing will come of these types of echo chambers, but it does. We have already experience with this from the incel and racist mass shooters and the online communities that helped birthing them.
I don’t say it’s easy to decide in every case when you should put a stop to a discussion. But simply allowing everything is not the way. And ironically this squabble community realises this by also not allowing everything.
Thanks for your response. Free speech is a nuanced topic and I appreciate well though out discussions about it.
I agree, It’s very hard to decide on a case by case basis what is and isn’t tolerable. That’s the main reason why I questions arguments for limiting speech–how can you make non-arbitrary distinctions between the two and who should have the authority to decide?
I think your example of speech advocating for women to not have the right to vote is a good subject to consider.
I agree, arguing that women shouldn’t have the right to vote is beyond rediciulous and in a vacuum, it would be reasonable to consider that speech intolerable. But on the other hand, wasn’t it freedom of speech that gave women the power to gain suffrage in the first place?
You mention drawing the distinction for intolerable speech at speech that limits the freedom of others. In an abstract sense I think that’s reasonable, but in practice I’m not so sure. Anti-suffragists often argued that granting women the right to vote infringed on their freedom. That’s obviously a morally wrong argument, but who should be allowed to decide that?
lmao you are the perfect example of what is wrong with this kind of thinking. You are free to ahead and block someone who was simply arguing in favor of free speech, but no one thinks big of you for it and the fact you decided to declare it to the world is hilarious.
Try visiting Belsen or Dachau, you fucking child.
OK? That doesn’t absolve the real childish behavior I was responding to, you idiot.
This is a great overview of the benefits and problems of free speech platforms without the immediate nosedive into the dogwhistle argument that seems to just be used as a thought/discussion stopper more than anything else lately.
I feel that it’s vitally important that free speech spaces exist. Places to discuss “ideas that the majority may find offensive or horrifying” are important, but they aren’t for everyone and they do by their nature offer spaces for “undesirable” people like holocaust deniers.
I misread that as you describing your dog as succulent.
That was some awkward English, fixed it now :)
It’s all good, I think I just needed to read more slowly!
Why bummer? It’s a great place so far in my opinion. The people are so much friendlier here.
True, Squabbles just felt better suited than Lemmy to short, no context random posts and photos. Might be all in my head though :)
More good options is always a good thing.
Like someone else said in another comment, I’m sure everybody on the left agree with the concept of free speech. So IMHO the real question is, why is it the case that platforms advocating free speech attract right wingers and extremists?
Because the left does not approve of hate speech, which is what right wingers immediately rush to spew whenever they see freeze peach.
People confuse free speech with freedom to harass and driving people out. When 90 % of a site (as an example) are antisemitic rants and antisemitic memes Jews are actively driven out of the place. You actually make a place less free by allowing discrimatory content. People have to potentially hide their identity or have to endure constant hostility. In consequence you are removing their voices from the platform.
I guess most “people on the left” would agree that you can create such a platform for yourself and your buddies but do not call it “free speech” when in reality it just creates a venting platform for a certain type of people.
Yo dog, I gotta know. Where are you posting those succulent pics?! I’ve been missing r/Succulents since the blackout.
Mostly [email protected] and sometimes [email protected] for cacti (hope I’m linking it correctly).
Thank you!
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>people are on the proprietary and centralized platform
>the proprietary and centralized platform does a bad thing
>people are moving to another proprietary and centralized platform
>another proprietary and centralized platform does a bad thing
I dont think most people care about whether something is centralized or not. I definitely dont. I am on Lemmy because it is afaik the biggest alternative to reddit with the most content. If there was a centralized version with more and better content I would go there
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Seems you’re kind of a leech though, that just wants people to keep creating these sandboxed for you to play in. Federated means they are less likely to have to do all this work to rebuild in the future.
But as long as you get yours, right?
The vast majority just wants to browse the place with all the relevant content so that they don’t miss out on current events. No need to resort to calling people leeches when the vast majority never even comment, let alone post.
honestly my experience starting this month is we’re already over the critical mass of users. there’s still stuff that isn’t here that I’ve seen yet but I don’t run out of content and get bored, so reddit’s already obsolete.
You’re not wrong, but that person shouldn’t be chastised for expecting a place that bills itself as being like Reddit to uhh… be like Reddit.
The lemmy federation should try to be something fundamentally different from Reddit, given the indisputable fact that it’s form led to its downfall like other aggregators before it.
Federation just means it’s confusing to sign up. I don’t care if I am a leech. I just want content and the ability to use my preferred app to get it.
Most of them seem to be moving to discuit, another centralised platform, Lol
This seems to be the reason for the change (jayclees is the creator and admin of the site):
It’s always telling when people describe a minority as a “political movement” rather than… people
honestly reading this, it just sounds to me like he isn’t cut out for community management. It is stressful and hard sometimes, so I get it, but he’s going to kill his own site doing this. I did wonder about this before - it seemed like to me he regularly made changes based on feedback on a whim, and these changes were often rushed without much thinking. Needs to know when to pass the baton elsewhere and stick to development, but alas…
The last comments also speak to someone who’s probably hiding some contrarian views of his own.
Shame.
cOnSeRvaTiVe vOiCeS aRe bEiNg sILeNcED!!
i.e. boohoohoo, I’m facing consequences for my hate speech.
It’s the engineers doing graphic design but worse: engineers speedrunning social sciences.
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Allowing bigots just means you are one. Rip squabbles.
As a wise bartender once said, “If you allow one Nazi, you no longer have a bar. You have a Nazi bar.”
LGBT people: “We have a right to exist.”
‘Free speech absolutists’: “Ugh, take your political bullshit someplace else.”
No idea how people think this is a valid way to talk about people literally fighting for their right to simply be present in public spaces without people attacking their very being.
If true: Well, that’s the end of that platform I guess. Shame, I liked that there were so many alternatives cropping up.
Grand opening, Grand closing
I guess there wasn’t enough Squabbling.
They also removed the admins who disagreed with this decision. Jayclees and Daniel are the only “staff” left now. This is a really bad look for them.
Literally why would you go to this website over Reddit. It has all the same problems and is just more boring.
“Free speech” is just a dog whistle and gas lighting now. Unless it’s fully allowing illegal content, then it’s not free speech, which is obviously sane to not allow. That’s why its a silly term to throw around in the first place.
“Free speech” is just a dog whistle and gas lighting now.
You’re not wrong, but I remember when free speech was more of a liberal issue. Freedom for artistic expression and all that. Freedom to curse in music, freedom to create and view porn etc.
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How is this gas lighting though?
I don’t think people really know what gas lighting is :p.
Relatedly, whether you understand the term or not, go watch the movie Gaslight where it comes from. Great film.
I’d go watch the movie, but my partner says that I’m too sick and clumsy to get out of bed right now. I don’t know where I’d be if they weren’t around to keep me straight, always reminding me of things I’ve said and done when I have moments of brain fog.
You wouldn’t go watch the movie, you’ve never even seen a movie.
Where the jewels?!
I don’t necessarily agree with the use of the term in this context, but I took it to mean that it’s gaslighting in the sense that when you call it out as a dog whistle meaning “you can now be a POS on our platform”, people can respond with stuff like “Wow, so you’re anti-free speech? Do you hate America? Why do you want to censor people?” And shit like that, which is gaslighting IMO
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I don’t understand what I’m looking at here? Some reddit-ish place is declaring free-speech then they immediately backpedal and say racist stuff doesn’t count, and also some admins left? So what is the material difference between a “free speech platform*” and lemmy which also doesn’t allow racist stuff?
In my experience forums that allow everything else will basically attract all the trans-, queer- and homophobes, misogynists and sexists.
That’s true.
Squabblr*
They had a mid 2000s rebranding.
Removng vovls s col nd trndy!
No doubt it will be called sqbblr in a month
I’m really confused by this direction? The admin seemed… nice, and all of the users were “let’s all be friends and be postivive x!” type people. Not exactly the place for “free speech” dog wistle folks. He’s just going to alienate his entire userbase, I don’t understand the point.
I left a month ago because it was clear they were going this way. Glad I’m here
I remember trying out Voat. They weren’t even hiding their love for certain words.
Sounds like they are going to speed run what happen with Voat.
Voat any% speedrun WR (glitchless)
They’re currently at level 4 (arguably maybe level 2) of the content moderation speedrun: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/11/02/hey-elon-let-me-help-you-speed-run-the-content-moderation-learning-curve/
Next step is for them to start dealing with DMCA takedowns.
I wonder why of all bad things they make an exception specifically for racism and not something else like pedophilia for example.
One is illegal in every civilized country and one is not
I hope people know that us all having instances would always be better than anything centralized elsewhere. 1) I can delete all my posts if I want. 2) anyone can make a better app to talk to it. 3) we got so many different ways of sharing our free speech here, it’s not even funny. 4) you can backup your stuff. I’m not, but you can do that if you serve your own server. 5) you can establish your own rules or land on someone else’s server that you trust.
At this point you gotta be a lower form of life to conclude that going centralized is good for anyone.
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so basically 4chan without the racial slurs
And this is why federation is great.
