I have noticed a huge difference between Lemmygrad and Lemmy.ml in terms of what kinds of theory gets upvoted and downvoted. What is the general vibe on here towards actually existing socialism as well as the ideas towards reformism?
A lot of the socialists on Lemmy.ml are MLs (hence the domain) and many of them are authoritarian leftist or at least sympathetic to the authoritarian reformism of that of Stalin. I personally prefer the Beehaw socialism community as it is inherently anti-authoritarian. Lemmygrad is a tankie infested cesspit with brainrotten propaganda regurgitators who have never read theory and struggle to fit the definitions of Leftists.
@ivereadalltheory @CharmingOwl yes MLs are authoritarian, im not sure why this surprises you. Engels wrote about authority quite a lot and id reccomend giving his work ‘on authority’ a look; its at most a ten minute read
tho i have seen my fare share of poor takes coming out of lemmy
I’ve read On Authority. There’s good reason for my identifying as a socialist rather than a ML. I don’t necessarily have a fundamental disagreement with the use of authoritarianism, however the way in which it has ever been implemented has been abominable and the defense of that by most MLs I’ve interacted with leads me to detest them when they’re aware of what they’re doing or assume they’re an idiot who’s fallen to the USSR billboard propaganda aesthetic if they’re not.
… let’s get some historical conditions straight: USSR was a wartime communism born and deformed by Western invasion (from USA and allies, no less) and persisted under a state of seige, so it didn’t have the luxury of a more democratic communism envisioned by Lenin. Even today, aligned with Trotskyist permanent revolution everywhere but their own govts, the same usual suspects are angling by invasion or insurgency to break up and loot Russia (along with China) who isn’t caught off-guard this time. Existential then, existential now.
I would also love to know what you think of the standard bogies of Cuba and Venezuela, or heck, even ML Vietnam or Kerala.
While the west was unquestionably antagonistic. Which you know is sort of a thing that can happen when you unilaterally overthrow a number of countries governments than forcibly annex them.
How in any way does Western antagonism justify those nations treatment of their own people? And how on earth can an anti-democratic uniparty ever be Democratic? Are you trying to convince anyone that there were no gulags etc? Or that it was ever good for dissenters? I mean we could ask all the people that were disappeared or assassinated. Not just in Russia. But in North Korea and China too. Do we need to mention tiananmen square or the Uyghurs? But they’re dead and gone. Cuba I think is a much more nuanced and better example. But still heavily flawed and problematic. You cannot blame it all on Western antagonism. It isn’t some panacea that alleviates you of all fault. Authoritarian communism is antithesis to Marx’s own theory. And will never work in reality. Authoritarianism is always destined to fail. No matter how long it drags on.
You realise the USA has its own slave labour gulag unmatched by Russia and China today, right? Though Soviet gulag was ruthless, born to meet rapid wartime industrialisation and unrelenting landowners (kulaks), it was more lax and informal than Auschwitz death camps that you wish to portray.
Meanwhile, Jim Crow and sundown towns in the USA oversaw its own apartheid underclass, many of whom looked to Soviet Russia for equity, Paul Robeson being the most notable.
Edit: replaced Tsarist-era ‘The Black Russian’ episode with more intended Soviet-era link, quite belatedly.
Whataboutism again. Yes the USA still has slave labor. No it isn’t unmatched by Russia and China. That’s an absurd thing to say. And even then. The US having that doesn’t justify Russia or China for their repression either.
As for Uighurs, they’re thriving and developing most rapidly in Xinjiang province, while the Western-backed extremist are indeed no more, exiled to their sponsors. Of course, the West has no problem sponsoring extremists, be it Nazis in Ukraine, Isis (and White Helmets) in Syria, rightwing death squads in the Americas, etc.
In the case of Tiananmen, that was an early colour revolution that got rightly squashed, demonstrating the need for strong government against foreign interventions that China is no stranger to since the 1800s regarding Japan and the West.
Almost forgot to mention, North Korea was bombed almost to oblivion until the USA literally ran out of bombs. Speaks for itself. .
Drop the whataboutism with the west. I agree it has lots of problems. But that doesn’t justify the problems of your authoritarian sect. The treatment of the Ughurs was and is still wrong. Ongoing. It hasn’t magically gotten better
The fact that the protestors in Tienanmen square were planning and expecting the brutal authoritarian government would start bloodshed against them. Doesn’t justify the governments bloodshed. This sort of circular logic is why no one takes you seriously.
And no, that doesn’t speak for itself. It’s been 60, 70 years since then. And a lot of what’s happened since then is on North Korea and the Kim-jeong family. The fake cities being built with no one living in them. The starvation of the people. The brutal repression. Again the west has problems too. But you can’t admonish the west and cheer on the brutal repression of authoritarian regimes of Marxist Leninist oxymoron countries. And not be anything other than a hypocrite.
It’s not that the West “was” antagonistic but “is”, while you elide the fact to throw in with Anglo-American CIA and Foreign Office talking points against staple targets of Western aggression: Russia, China, Cuba, and North Korea for good measure. As I said, vanguard of imperialism.
You have unironically exclaimed “how on earth can an anti-democratic uniparty ever be Democratic” (with a capital D, as in party, lol)? When you’re serious about tackling your own govts with the fervour you cheerlead regime change in lesser countries, only then socialism in the collective West could be taken seriously. China and Venezuela have more active democracy and socialism than that.
I’m a Libertarian Marxist. I have no love for the CIA and blame it for a lot of the “WORLDS” problems. The fact that this is what you resort to. Along with the whataboutism and inability to actually explain the bad things that happen in your authoritarian regimes. Really shows how indoctrinated you are.
I don’t have a problem with communism. Just authoritarianism and capitalism. You are both bad. But all you can do is point fingers trying to portray the other as somehow worse. And still failing. I would love nothing more than to see society come together and nationalize basic industry and infrastructure to fulfill societies basic needs. To abolish private property and replace it with a doctrine of personal property. And generally neuter/abolish the ownership class. Without the perpetual slaughter and dungeons.
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I am an authoritarian ML who upholds Stalin, Mao and the modern DPRK. I have noticed though a lot of people seem anti-authoritarian here compared to Lemmygrad where I used to host my communities.
… in other words, Behaw socialism (lemmy.ml too) is Trotskyist, origin of many a Neocon: liberal socialism at the vanguard of Western imperialism against the array of global socialism ranging from Bolivarian in the Americas to Maoist in Asia. “Global” as in Global South, all authoritarian to a Trotskyite, in need of liberation.
im so glad that people here dislike that tankie hellhole, because i tried to join and had a terrible experience.
I joined them back when I was a lib because I wanted to learn more about communism and I was met with genocide denial or even support and all the authoritarian sucking up you can imagine. Now I’m a communist and I still think there’s not even a single positive attribute of lemmygrad except as an example of how even people with lobotomies can regurgitate authoritarian and totalitarian propaganda.
I like Marx and am iffy about Lenin. I also consider myself a libertarian regarding most issues and dislike hedonism. That doesn’t put me somewhere specific regarding ideology but that’s that.
I’m iffy about Lenin too. Marx and Engels wrote about bottom up socialism but Lenin came along and basically said the working class is too stupid for a socialist revolution and opted for top down socialism which led to authoritarian socialism and state capitalism.
Our neolib capitalist society is top down governance which is why I highly oppose everything that isn’t bottom up socialism
yeah, i agree, lenin is mid.
Just curious, why do you dislike hedonism? How does that fit into a political/social ideology? This is in no way a challenge.
I dislike hedonism in the case it antagonizes discipline. There are many cases where our desires overcome our sense of self and end up as addictions. I guess what I dislike is formless desire unrestricted by rationality. Self-discipline = sense of self = good.
It is my view that everything is political, how could a way of thinking about desire not be? Hedonism in particular is perfectly suited for the current consumer culture which claims to satisfy our every want, which treats desire as the ultimate drive in the world and monetizes it. Participation in market economy is addictive and erodes our sense of self. It weakens us as individuals and prepares us for its hierarchies.
Not all hedonistic philosophies are pro-consumer. Epicureanism, for example, still keeps personal happiness as the overarching goal, but considers following pleasure and desire to be reckless and counterproductive.
The way to personal happiness isn’t through following desires, it’s through eliminating needs and pains. The only way to reach sustainable, long lasting happiness is through a healthy body and an unburdened mind. It promotes simple living and imo is one of the better fits for a socialist world.
Overindulgence is anathema to Epicureanism, since it creates more pain for the person in the long term. Sure, drug abuse could make you incredibly happy for a few hours, but it ruins your body and your mind, so it’s really not worth it.
It stands to reason, then, that any self interested person following Epicureanism would turn towards community and friends, since it’s pleasant to know people are doing well and unpleasant to know people are feeling miserable. Try as you might, deep down you won’t be truly happy as long as you know there’s something you could be doing to help, but aren’t.
Well, I have nothing against old Epicurus, just unrestricted hedonism.
That would make you a libertarian ideologically. Though sadly the term has been co-opted by false neo-libertarian cultists. Most would label themselves libertarian marxists today to differentiate themselves from the dishonest actors on the right. I myself fall on that range as well. Though I am decidedly anti-lenin, anti-authoritarian.
yeah, i have taught my friends and family the true meaning of libertarian, but they still sometimes assume it refers to "an"caps.
im quite eclectic myself, never fit well into catagories.
This is good discourse. I appreciate it and learned a lot.
What kind of difference in posts perception you noticed between lemmygrad and lemmy.ml?
I’ve noticed opposite reaction to the same content across both communities.
idk hostely, didn’t noticed. Maybe there is more discourse about how socialist china is on lemmygrad though
What is the general vibe on here towards actually existing socialism as well as the ideas towards reformism?
I can only speak for myself but so-called AES is just capitalism. It can be capitalism that is far far better than the U.S or other imperialist countries, but I’m not a communist that cheers for improvements to Capitalism. And what is there to speak of with “reformism”? It’s a dead end that doesn’t lead to Socialism and is the norm.
As an aside, both Lemmy.ml and Lemmygrad are largely full of what I’d called revisionists, meaning simply the refusal to acknowledge that Socialism has been defeated and supplanted by state capitalism where it once briefly existed. The actual communists (i.e they at least agree with Leninism) in imperialist countries are largely revisionists so it’s not surprising that’s what you see online among English speakers. However, Lemmygrad is a dogmatic echo chamber. If you want to hear nothing but pro-AES sentiment and walk on dogmatic egg shells, that’s the instance you want. Lemmy.ml is ran by good people (the developers) and seems to have decent moderators despite my political differences. I at least come across a variety of positions and whatnot.
glad to see sane people here, unlike the people on reddits r/socialism.
Being from a 3rd world country that lived under a dictatorship backed by the US in the 60s, I always found difficult to find international, english speaking socialist communities that saw the “US problem” and imperialism in the same light, because the internet is mostly american.
Yes, we can’t blame the US for EVERY problem that happened under authoritarian socialist experiences, but holy shit, a lot of problems were and still are the US fault. And on more “mainstream” socialist comunities, people tend to have way more resistance in accepting this.
