Forget all the stuff out there that says the GDPR protects EU citizens. This is a question of jurisdiction and enforcement. Say I run a blog under a business registered in the US funded by advertisers in the US. A EU citizen that comments on posts issues a GDPR request that I ignore. Their government fines me. I tell them to get bent, I am out of their jurisdiction. What can they do at that point?
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Incorrect.
The current data agreement between the US and EU is neither a law nor a treaty. It is an executive order, which means it did not pass through Congress and simply reflects the policy of the current administration. Like any other executive order, it could be ignored or overturned by a subsequent administration.
Furthermore, it does not mean “GDPR is actually the law in the US”. It means that the current US administration will cooperate in enforcing certain privacy rights against US law enforcement and the intelligence community. It does not give EU citizens the same rights they have in the EU under the GDPR. For example, it does not allow private individuals to sue US companies for damages in US courts.
Thank you, I learned something new today.
the other is for the US government to sign a treaty
Just to clarify here: it’s not just the act of signing it that makes it US law. The executive branch negotiates and signs a treaty, but the treaty then has to be approved by a 2/3 majority of the Senate in order to become law.
Just wanted to make it clear that there are still checks-and-balances on this process and that it’s not a loophole around Congressional approval.
Genuinely curious… what would the damages be?
I am a US citizen, I know how our laws are made, and find the explanation a little condescending, but this is the best answer so far that there is a treaty about it. I couldn’t find that anywhere. Thanks.
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“You read that condescension into it by yourself. You are asking a question and that is the answer I have no idea about your context.” That is fair. I hadn’t had my coffee and have been dealing with an unusually high amount of unpleasant individuals lately, hence the short fuse.
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Apparently it is being implemented via executive order. It seems like enforcement could be struck down in the courts. For those that aren’t familiar with how the US works, an EO is just the president telling federal employees to do something. Biden could issue an EO telling the FBI to arrest me for calling him a poopy head, but I would never be indicted for it. I am not seeing it on the state department list of US treaties either. So with no real treaty, the question still stands of what can the EU really do to a US entity that refuses to comply?
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Dudes handle is literally neanderthal. To my knowledge the last neanderthals died out a long time ago and there are no direct descendants but go a head and warn me for ‘vocally harassing’ someone.
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Well time to unsub if simple humor isn’t allowed. Have fun trying to moderate with that kind of attitude.
Not entirely. There was some even some inter breeeding with what we consider modern humans. People today have Neanderthal DNA. I hate to break to you, but your great-great…great granny was likely a neanderthal.
Yeah isn’t %2 supposed to be the average across humanity with some people having an even higher percentage? Either way hopefully you didn’t take offense because it was supposed to be a light hearted poke at your username and the context of the conversation above my reply. Also you’d be surprised at how many (or few) Americans actually know how the law processes work here.
No he didn’t. The context was “as a US citizen” per the post. You gave him a 6th grade civics lesson about how bills turn into laws a-la school house rock before even sort of addressing the question. The next step would’ve been explaining what laws even are.
That’s a little condescending, assuming a citizen of a nation doesn’t know how their own laws are created. It isn’t a LOT condescending but it is a little.
Speaking only for myself (another US citizen), I didn’t know treaties could cover things like that so I found it valuable.
And you are what… The random condescending inspector or what? Nowhere in the OP’s message did they convey they were familiar with the law making process. I found that particular answer the easiest to read. So there’s that. Even the OP agreed that they shouldn’t have reacted like that.
There is no treaty. And the GDPR is not “law” in the US. You cannot sue a company for damages in the US like in the EU.
However, there is an executive order that allows you to file a complaint if you think your privacy rights have been violated.
You can find a good explainer here.
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Then they block your site and prevent you ever doing business in one of the world’s largest markets. I’m not sure how liability works but the CEO may also be unable to travel to the EU also
This is a good article on whether non-EU websites have to obey the GDPR. It boils down to two criteria:
If your business is offering goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the EU
or
If your business monitors the behavior of EU citizens and their behavior takes place within the union.
The latter includes use of advertising cookies, location tracking, etc.
If neither of those apply, you can probably ignore the GDPR.
That is an interesting article, but it doesn’t answer the question of jurisdiction because it refers to the GDPR itself. I.e. it doesn’t answer whether an EU country itself actually has the authority to enforce it on a US citizen. The US could pass a law that says a website operator must eat a dog turd every time anyone, anywhere, a website runs an ad that a US person sees. Say someone in Romania runs a site with ads and the US government wants to enforce this. The law could even state that it applies anywhere in the world, but that doesn’t make it so because the US does not have jurisdiction everywhere in the world. The Romanian government will rightly refuse to make their citizen eat the dog turd.
So the spirit of my question is, where is the stick to actually enforce anything on a US entity operating in the US under the GDPR? There is an agreement via an EO. Is there anything else in US law that could be used to enforce this if a US citizen refused an EU country trying to enforce the GDPR in the US? Using the text of it is NA because the EU can only do things that apply to EU countries and their citizens.
For those that aren’t familiar with how the US gov functions, an EO is not even remotely close to a treaty, which has the same supremacy as our constitution. All an EO does is tell federal employees or federal executive agencies what to do. Our president could issue an EO telling everyone in the US to wear yellow hats when not in a building and for the FBI to arrest anybody with a yellow hat. Those arrested would have charges dropped the second it reaches the court because such a law does not exist and it is outside the scope of power of the president. EOs can only act within already existing laws.
Maybe you’d care to read this https://allaboutcookies.org/how-to-avoid-gdpr-fines
This is why a lot of US sites block EU residents , it’s easier than being compliant and if you’re a US focused site it makes sense.
That’s why I use a VPN when using links from Reddit as many news sites are blocked .
I’ve read that, it just says more fines. Say I ignore them, now what?
You then hope you don’t have any assets in a part of the world where the EU member states have jurisdiction over you and can seize your stuff to pay your fines. You should also prepare to have your site blocked for any traffic comming from within a member state.
In short: Unless your entirely US based, setve only US or non European customers, and don’t plan on ever expanding into european territory, there probably isn’t all to much you can do legally.
This is the best response, imho
Your advertisers who most likely sell stuff to EU people will become party to your noncompliance, and will be unable to use the data you sell them, and may cut ties for liability reasons.
Also some jurisdictions in the EU reserve the right to submit incassos directly to the SWIFT system, but that’s mostly used for eg. speeding tickets.
For example if you come here to my country from the US with your car and get a speeding ticket that you refuse to pay, my government will just take it out of your US bank account unilaterally. GDPR fines are criminal fines just as speeding tickets are.
Realistically though, if you don’t have massive wealth to bribe people in the US, the US authority will just enforce the fine on you.
This might help:
Pretty much nothing if it’s digital services with no goods or payments in the EU.(unless the eu puts pressure on the 3rd countries government)
That agreement concerns use of EU data by the US government itself (ie the intelligence community and law enforcement).
It does not give EU citizens any opportunity to enforce claims against US companies in US courts.
This was the answer I was looking for. Thanks!
Based on your replies to other comments, it seems you don’t see how the GDPR, or GDPR fines, could have any effect on US companies.
https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
Sort the list by fines, and you find US companies paying whopping amounts. Many affect their EU presence (such as Meta Platforms Ireland Limited), but others don’t (such as Meta Platforms, Inc.).
Ask yourself if these giants were just too nice to give in, or if they were too poor to hire a lawyer.
If you think both options are unrealistic, maybe the GDPR does have an effect even on US companies.
I think the largest assumption you are making is that the OP does business with the EU. If they do not, they are truly out of the jurisdiction of GDPR and wouldn’t be finding themselves on that list. Those fines you are referring to a multinational corps that definitely do a lot of business within the EU.
the largest assumption you are making is that the OP does business with the EU. If they do not, they are truly out of the jurisdiction of GDPR
GDPR applies to American enterprises if they process personal data of EU citizens.
If you serve a website which is accessible to EU citizens, and that site collects personal data or allows users to enter personal data, GDPR most probably applies to you. IANAL.
True, but it’s important to note that personal data means identifiers such as name, date of birth, location, etc. Comments on a blog, by themselves, are not personal data.
If the comment keeps your IP address, and/or your email, or a nickname, it can be considered personal data.
The “simple” rule is : does that info, once used with other data, can allow someone to figure out who you are ? If so, then it’s personal. From there, always validate with a lawyer who is actually properly trained on the GDPR to review your decision.
I agree about logging IP addresses or emails.
But I am not so sure that usernames or nicknames are necessarily identifiers. For example, if someone posts as “IamtherealTomHanks”, you can’t actually identify who they are.
“Ask yourself if these giants were just too nice to give in, or if they were too poor to hire a lawyer.”
Option 3, cheaper to pay than to fight it. If you aren’t from the US, people have pled guilty to even criminal charges because the cost of going to court and fighting it is higher than what is offered in the plea deal. Option 4, public backlash not worth the cost.
Probably nothing.
You would need an international law expert to be sure of the exact consequences, but if you have failed to pay a court ordered file then you would probably be unable to travel to an EU country or a country with an extradition treaty. You would certainly face issues if you ever wanted to expand your business overseas.
To operate in the EU a lot of larger companies (think Facebook’s and Googles with offices in EU) require their data to be kept in a EU based data center or follow strict safe harbour rules. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/privacy-security/us-eu-safe-harbor-framework
Failure to do so could mean your site can’t operate in the EU, you couldn’t sell adverts to eu, you couldn’t collect payment from EU, you may even have site blocked.
Yeah I’m that case nothing can be done but say your site had a European operation that would be be covered under GDPR and the US parent would likely pay the fine to continue their operations on the continent
There’s a treaty between us and EU.
So if you suspect a us entity violating your EU right aka gdpr you can make a complaint to your city’s data protection agency or directly via the EU complaints for cases outside your country ( inside and outside EU) They will take care of it and make sure that you don’t need to travel to another country for court stuff and more ( if needed in most cases you don’t)
Usually it gets regulated in a way that you can go to a court in your city and the enemy in his city.
So all in all the us wants the EU market and vice versa so both agreed to a treaty to honor the rules of each other
More info google
Trans-Atlantic Data Privacy Framework
The Trans-Atlantic Data Privacy Framework (and subsequent executive orders) protect the EU citizens from misuse of their data by US law enforcement and intelligence communities.
They do not give EU citizens any rights concerning data held only by private companies, apart from the rights all Americans already have.
Nope, not according to the US state department:
https://www.state.gov/treaties-in-force/
I looked, couldn’t find it.
Badly researched my dude before you try to make it look like facts do more than a Google search of a minute
Google “Trans-Atlantic Data Privacy Framework”
That’s the one that honors gdpr and EU rights
It isn’t a treaty, even according the EU:
It is implemented via executive order which courts don’t have to honor. All it means is LE agencies have to take action. Courts are free to ignore the EO and dismiss any charges or civil suits. A treaty is a different story.
