- cross-posted to:
- weirdway
- cross-posted to:
- weirdway
I was walking around in a park and decided to apply a transformation to my experience when I kept hearing an annoying siren that just wouldn’t shut up.
As soon as I decided that, the siren started to get quieter, with some subtle ups and downs in volume, but trending downward in volume. But this wasn’t happening fast enough for my liking. So I was then focusing this way and that, and I was adjusting my mentality like this and like that to make it go faster. And then it struck me.
It struck me that the reason I was doing that is because on some level I was still assuming that magick is something objective, and then it was my job to find the one right way to do it. I had to match my activity to something I imagined to be objectively the most effective way of performing a transformation.
Then I realized the idiocy of that belief and I found it funny how I still continued to believe it on some level even though I know better. I’m not even sure I’ve learned my lesson. It’s entirely possible the next time some transformation doesn’t work fast enough, I’ll be trying to “tune” it, lol. I hope not. At minimum I shouldn’t tune anything with the idea that I’m matching what I am doing to some external unbending and eternal standard.
“One backward idea I had about magick, revealed recently.”
Originally posted by u/mindseal on 2016-11-09 03:12:00 (5bu3m4).
It struck me that the reason I was doing that is because on some level I was still assuming that magick is something objective, and then it was my job to find the one right way to do it. I had to match my activity to something I imagined to be objectively the most effective way of performing a transformation.
Hah! It’s such an easy trap to stumble into. It’s like ‘trying to meditate’ - a hole I still stumble into from time to time after years of practice.
Our intuitions are deep, deep in our bones. The more progress I make, the longer the road ahead seems, sometimes.
Originally commented by u/Utthana on 2016-11-14 08:15:20 (d9ywmen)
At minimum I shouldn’t tune anything with the idea that I’m matching what I am doing to some external unbending and eternal standard.
So here you might still be assuming there’s something you have to change. I think a subtractive approach towards volition is not as effective and efficient as simply defining the parameters of your reality and focusing on those parameters. For example, as I was typing this reply there was a crow outside that’s been cawing for a while but I hadn’t noticed it and it didn’t bother me until I started looking for a noise to practice on. So I focused and intended for it to stop but all that did was bring the crow visually to my attention as I noticed it sitting and cawing on the neighbor’s roof. Eventually I gave up and went back to doing my work and that’s when it flew away.
So in this example, focusing on making the crow disappear creates a conflict whereby I’m keeping the crow in my attention to remove it from my attention. It’s counter-intuitive.
Volition should be without terms or conditions, it just is. Standing up doesn’t require any reasoning with your body or perceived laws of physics each time you want to do it, you just stand up.
So in saying that, does it make sense to ‘test’ your volition and ‘build’ its strength? I’m not so sure… I think commitment and focus towards what is desired without contemplating opposing possibilities is a more promising approach.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2016-11-09 17:09:17 (d9sdqgc)
So here you might still be assuming there’s something you have to change.
Yes, there is. I should start assuming I am always successful and that it’s a matter of time and the overall shape of my mentality, and not a matter of in-the-moment technique. It’s not a change in technique, but it is a change.
I think a subtractive approach towards volition is not as effective and efficient as simply defining the parameters of your reality and focusing on those parameters.
So abandon a subtractive approach and undertake a “defining parameters” approach. That’s a change. :) You’re also talking about change.
Change isn’t inherently bad, imo.
For example, as I was typing this reply there was a crow outside that’s been cawing for a while but I hadn’t noticed it and it didn’t bother me until I started looking for a noise to practice on. So I focused and intended for it to stop but all that did was bring the crow visually to my attention as I noticed it sitting and cawing on the neighbor’s roof. Eventually I gave up and went back to doing my work and that’s when it flew away.
This is very different from what I was describing in my post. In my post I sensed a direct connection between me wanting my experience to be a certain way and it becoming a certain way, but it just wasn’t fast enough. That’s not the same thing as feeling like my volition had no traction at all.
So in this example, focusing on making the crow disappear creates a conflict whereby I’m keeping the crow in my attention to remove it from my attention. It’s counter-intuitive.
My approach is not for everyone. You really cannot be a normal human and hope to do the things I am talking about. Of course it cannot work for normal people. Sanity is a very rigid box.
You have to understand a normal person cannot simply “just try” the things I am talking about expect them to work instantly and perfectly. What’s behind some of my magickal successes is lifetimes (more than one) of refining my own mentality, huge sacrifices, a lot of resolve, etc. If your background is not like my own, you will not just up and do exactly the same things as me. What your mind allows you to do depends on your mentality, and mentality is generally not something you can change profoundly in the space of 5 minutes. It’s individual, but generally thinking in terms of lifetimes or decades is more helpful than thinking in terms of hours or minutes.
Volition should be without terms or conditions, it just is.
I disagree. Volition is not “just is.” Volition is a choice. You can either fall into a subconscious pattern and keep repeating what you already know so very very well. Or you can do things in a new way. It’s a choice. Remaining with the status quo is a choice. Abandoning the status quo is a choice.
So in saying that, does it make sense to ‘test’ your volition and ‘build’ its strength?
I never talk about testing or strength. Specifically “strength” is not a relevant parameter in my conception of volition. Volition doesn’t work against some external-to-itself resistance. Instead volition is the overall shape and direction of mentality-experience.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2016-11-11 05:39:25 (d9uoado)
So abandon a subtractive approach and undertake a “defining parameters” approach. That’s a change. :) You’re also talking about change.
Yes you could say it’s a change but all you’re doing is making an intent, that’s a first step you’ve always been taking and you don’t do anything after that.
Change isn’t inherently bad, imo.
I agree.
I sensed a direct connection between me wanting my experience to be a certain way and it becoming a certain way, but it just wasn’t fast enough.
How useful is it to notice how your experience is now if your intent is for it to be something else? Is there value in comparing experiences between a ‘now’ and a ‘then’ or would that be conflicting the intent?
My approach is not for everyone. You really cannot be a normal human and hope to do the things I am talking about. Of course it cannot work for normal people. Sanity is a very rigid box.
Yes it’s subjective for sure, but we’re having these discussions for the sake of elephants in the blue Ø
I disagree. Volition is not “just is.” Volition is a choice. You can either fall into a subconscious pattern and keep repeating what you already know so very very well. Or you can do things in a new way. It’s a choice. Remaining with the status quo is a choice. Abandoning the status quo is a choice.
When I say Volition just is, I mean you make an intent and that intent is all it takes to trigger the manifestation instead of having conditional elements or steps that need to be undertaken to allow the manifestation to occur. I think you mean the same thing when you say “Volition doesn’t work against some external-to-itself resistance.”?
But of course it’s a choice, if you create a system and it works for you then you should by all means embrace it. My approach is one choice, I might change it one day.
volition is the overall shape and direction of mentality-experience
Yes, the way you word it paints a nice picture for me.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2016-11-11 09:38:09 (d9v0e8m)
I want to drill a bit further into myself for anyone reading these things.
I notice that my prior physicalism didn’t just up and vanish one day. Instead as I am working with subjective idealism, my physicalistic mental habits are weakening. But this is a gradual process with some ups and downs.
So typically there is quite a bit of mental inertia in my mind that will prevent most magickal intents from working. I find that it helps significantly if I am genuinely interested in the transformation I want to see. So for example, that time I mentioned in my original post, I really wanted that siren to shut up. Genuinely. So it was much easier to do that transformation then.
Later I tried doing the same thing you were telling me about: which is a kind of a “let’s just see if I can do it” test. Problem is, I didn’t feel genuine about it. I experienced noises I didn’t care about and I felt like my only reason to manipulate those noises would be to try to “prove” something? But I also have zero desire to prove anything to myself. Then what? Turns out I cannot always contrive intent. Intent is a choice, but that choice, for me specifically and specifically at this time, has to ride on the back of some genuine need, in order to have much force for magickal purposes.
Hypothetically I can imagine someone who has fully assimilated all consequences of subjective idealism and solipsism (which is a specific way to utilize subjective idealism), and has eliminated all contrary beliefs and their associated mental habits, can indeed perform arbitrary manifestations even just to test or prove things, or for very spurious and frivolous reasons. That’s because the resistance to intent in this case will be virtually zero, and you’re essentially in a fully-realized God mode then. But this is not nearly where I am personally at right now, yet.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2016-11-11 10:32:46 (d9v2we6)
That’s what my original submission was saying in the first place.
Ok I’m glad we’re on the same page with that.
It’s useful to compare and there is no conflict. While the present appearance is only suggestive instead of informative, it’s not wise to pretend that it doesn’t in fact suggest something. Appearances have perceived meaning. I may want that meaning to change. Or I may want to elicit a specific appearance. If the only way I can do that is to adopt some unrealistic stance that requires me to evacuate the present moment, that’s not going to be skillful.
These are all great points.
So it’s OK to notice how experience appears now, without clinging, and then move to an experience that’s different, deliberately, or in any other way.
So acknowledging the present without clinging. See I agree with this but by doing so I might be contradicting with my context of abandoning a subtractive approach, so let me expand:
Intent - contradictory intent - habit = manifestation
This formula makes a lot of sense to me, but from my experience I’m finding that changing a habit or a contradictory intent works by replacing or reframing said habit/intent rather than removing it. And I do that by imagining a new scenario. I’m not denying my present mindset, I’m still acknowledging it, learning from it, and making peace with it but I’m not constantly going back and accepting it as “this is my reality and that’s how it is now and I need to delete that so I can change it”.
As you said “contradictory intent is usually subconscious” and a subconscious intent is not something you can readily remove but rather leave alone to dissipate from lack of use, just like a muscle, and shift your focus onto a desired intent which will begin to expand subconsciously.
We might be saying the same thing here with different syntax.
Turns out I cannot always contrive intent. Intent is a choice, but that choice, for me specifically and specifically at this time, has to ride on the back of some genuine need, in order to have much force for magickal purposes.
Yes! This has been my experience. It’s like trying to manifest a physical object or money because you think it will bring you happiness when in fact your genuine desire is something else completely, so the object or money takes a long time to manifest if at all since your heart is set on another goal. So to know oneself…
(e.g. when I was trying to shut the crow up it wasn’t a genuine desire but more about trying to prove a point to myself, but shifting my focus did the job.)
So is that how you see it? I am discussing this for my own sake. Maybe not entirely, but mostly.
I was making a silly joke but I appreciate your input and everyone’s input here as if it was my own. The articles are invaluable.
Right. If you say “volition just is” some people think it means just sit down and start waiting, don’t play with your mind at all, just wait, and eventually what you want will arrive, like on a long conveyor belt that’s rolling your way with the different things on it, and the thing you want is waaaay out there, and it ‘just rolls’ so don’t do anything, just wait. That’s the image I get when I hear talk of “just is.” To me “just is” is evocative of the status quo.
Point taken, I should be more concise with my wording. And as concise as you think you are sometimes it’s not enough and these discussions help dispel that.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2016-11-11 14:03:59 (d9vbzo4)
This formula makes a lot of sense to me, but from my experience I’m finding that changing a habit or a contradictory intent works by replacing or reframing said habit/intent rather than removing it.
I agree totally. I hope I didn’t create any impressions to the contrary.
Furthermore, I find that before I can reform a contradictory intent it helps to understand it first. All intentional states serve some purpose. For me personally I find I have to acknowledge that purpose and then I have to either decide that I no longer need some purpose to be served, or, find a new way to serve the same old purpose, that will not contradict my magickal intentionality going forward.
So for example, a big reason why I was a physicalist to begin with, is the sense of rock-solid stability and predictability I would feel about myself and the world. So let’s say I want more flexibility, but I still want stability. Then I can’t just blindly throw away physicalism. I have to find new sources of stability first. Then I have to gradually lean on those sources and see if they’re reliable. If yes, I can begin relaxing around my prior physicalism.
So it’s a gradual process and one with a lot of self-respect instead of self-bashing. So even though I recognize I was doing things in a substandard way in the past, I should realize that those old ways still had a reason and I wasn’t a complete idiot in the past. :) Just somewhat foolish, or maybe even not so foolish. Maybe my priorities have changed and now I need a new worldview that better suits those priorities.
So for me it’s a process of gradual understanding of oneself that I believe allows one to relax around the old patterns and reform those patterns into some more suitable newer ones.
Contradictory intentionality can be tricky because so much of it is below the level of consciousness, so before I can understand it, I have to be aware of it to begin with. So much of my own effort is directed at becoming maximally aware of all the activity in my own mind. In this it’s been my experience that it helps to combine passive observation with playful experimentation. This is where the magick comes in. Just sitting quietly and observing I will not learn all there is to know about myself. I have to observe myself in action, during striving, and not just when I am passive or relaxing. It’s particularly instructive when I am striving in some unconventional or beyond-conventional manner too. Again, magick.
We might be saying the same thing here with different syntax.
It’s starting to look that way.
And as concise as you think you are sometimes it’s not enough and these discussions help dispel that.
I agree. What I say is not perfect. I mean, I myself find problems with my earlier articles (especially if they’re really old). Plus, I have a tendency to assume everyone is on the same page as me, so I speak in a kind of shorthand that often assumes too much. On the other hand, I have to speak imperfectly, because if I start to explain every last element of the surrounding context I won’t even get to say anything.
So I say something that’s not 100% right, then you say something else, then I reply, and eventually something emerges that’s better compared to if you didn’t say anything.
I am glad for your replies. I think you’re speaking in a very constructive and helpful way.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2016-11-11 14:35:36 (d9vdbmb)
So for me it’s a process of gradual understanding of oneself that I believe allows one to relax around the old patterns and reform those patterns into some more suitable newer ones.
I have to observe myself in action, during striving, and not just when I am passive or relaxing. It’s particularly instructive when I am striving in some unconventional or beyond-conventional manner too. Again, magick.
Yes techniques aren’t a one size fits all and you have to find what works best for you in any given situation. Awareness is crucial at all times as it helps you to tune your approach and customize it appropriately. Magick is a bespoke artform.
So I say something that’s not 100% right, then you say something else, then I reply, and eventually something emerges that’s better compared to if you didn’t say anything.
The discussions help chip away the excess and create a more refined model of understanding, even if it’s a temporary model which acts as a stepping stone for an improved one (ironically, the theme of this thread).
I am glad for your replies. I think you’re speaking in a very constructive and helpful way.
It’s always a pleasure and I appreciate the kind words.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2016-11-12 11:06:25 (d9wk888)
Magick is a bespoke artform.
Well said.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2016-11-12 13:10:09 (d9woxku)
Yes you could say it’s a change but all you’re doing is making an intent, that’s a first step you’ve always been taking and you don’t do anything after that.
That’s what my original submission was saying in the first place.
How useful is it to notice how your experience is now if your intent is for it to be something else? Is there value in comparing experiences between a ‘now’ and a ‘then’ or would that be conflicting the intent?
It’s useful to compare and there is no conflict. While the present appearance is only suggestive instead of informative, it’s not wise to pretend that it doesn’t in fact suggest something. Appearances have perceived meaning. I may want that meaning to change. Or I may want to elicit a specific appearance. If the only way I can do that is to adopt some unrealistic stance that requires me to evacuate the present moment, that’s not going to be skillful. So it’s OK to notice how experience appears now, without clinging, and then move to an experience that’s different, deliberately, or in any other way.
Yes it’s subjective for sure, but we’re having these discussions for the sake of elephants in the blue Ø
So is that how you see it? I am discussing this for my own sake. Maybe not entirely, but mostly. A friend of mine indirectly suggested that maybe I should post more. I’m starting to post some things now that in the past I wouldn’t have posted and would instead have kept to myself. When I first started /r/weirdway, I had a lot that I really wanted to say. So I made a series of articles which essentially say 95% of what I wanted to say. Then I was left without any desire to say more until a lot more insight/experience has “accumulated” (bad word, not to be taken literally). And keep in mind, I measure progress in decades and lifetimes. So if I catch everyone up to where I am now with say 40 articles, then maybe before I can make a post that’s substantially new and substantially different from the same old I have to continue conscious living for another decade or so. But people want content now. :) Truth is, I am not a content machine. I sometimes want to say things and sometimes I don’t. I’m almost always ready for a discussion and ready to answer questions, but my desire to make articles really varies from year to year or decade to decade.
I mean you make an intent and that intent is all it takes to trigger the manifestation instead of having conditional elements or steps that need to be undertaken to allow the manifestation to occur. I think you mean the same thing when you say “Volition doesn’t work against some external-to-itself resistance.”?
Right. If you say “volition just is” some people think it means just sit down and start waiting, don’t play with your mind at all, just wait, and eventually what you want will arrive, like on a long conveyor belt that’s rolling your way with the different things on it, and the thing you want is waaaay out there, and it ‘just rolls’ so don’t do anything, just wait. That’s the image I get when I hear talk of “just is.” To me “just is” is evocative of the status quo.
As for manifestation, I think the formula is more complex but not by much.
Intent - contradictory intent - habit = manifestation.
Contradictory intent is usually subconscious.
Making intent is going to be useless if there is a huge belief network in the subconscious which explains to you why your intent can never work. For example, if you believe birds exist separately from you and sing of their own independent volition, then when you will them to shut up, that’s not going to fly (pardon the pun). In order for intent to work the mind has to be coherent around that intent. Coherence does not have to be perfect, but it has to be significant. So coherence is not an all or nothing proposition. One can still succeed with an intent and also some doubts going against that same intent, but the doubts will not help the process and may delay it or weaken it, also depending on how one frames those doubts too. So it’s complex. To really do well in this process one has to know oneself and one’s own desire to a very profound degree.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2016-11-11 10:16:24 (d9v25y2)