I grew up going to church but I’m not religious now and I never really understood this part.
Please, no answers along the lines of “aha, that’s why Christianity is a sham” or “religions aren’t logical”. I don’t want to debate whether it’s right or wrong, I just want to understand the logic and reasoning that Christians use to explain this.
The theological answer, as I learned it, is most clearly spelled out in James 2:14-26, often referenced through the phrase “faith without works is dead”. The short version is: faith in Jesus will save you, not good deeds. However, if you have faith in Jesus, then that faith will manifest itself through good deeds. If someone proclaims their faith but doesn’t act lovingly, then they don’t actually have faith and won’t be saved. So a Christian should be a good person not because being good will save them, but because being good is a result of genuine faith.
TLDR: He doesn’t forgive anyone who sins, he forgives those who repent. Repent not meaning “feeling sorry” as many seem to explain, but actually meaning “to turn away” which means changing fundamentally as a human being. From a bad person to a good person.
Someone who doesn’t change and act good most of the time isn’t repentant, so isn’t forgiven. So basically, you prove it with your actions and how you live your life, not with just words only. By this measurement, Republican “Christians” aren’t repentant and so aren’t forgiven.
Not a Christian anymore, but I used to be for a very long time. Sidebar: “You will know a tree by it’s fruit” AKA you’ll know what kind of person someone is by what they do. Anyone who’s even skimmed the bible (especially the new testament) would easily understand that most conservative “christians” aren’t Christian at all, but rather like the Pharisees (phony religious types) that Jesus constantly argued with and condemned.
Other note: Sikhs actually live the way Christian claim to. I could easily make a “hard to swallow pill” meme which said: “Sikhs are better Christians than actual Christians are.”
IIRC the trick is to get your forgiveness after the last dick move, but before you die. If you mess up the timing, eternal damnation so it’s safer to be good.
Theres a sacrement for that, The Last Rites. One last confession, eucharist, and being annointed with holy water to finish it up.
Yeah some Catholics I know use this as an excuse to be an asshole since they believe they just need to go to church, say an our father and everything is all good again.
also dont forget rapture. It can be over anytime. The moment you actually set out to do this you are already a believer since
- you believe in god/hell
- since this comes from the bible you acknowledge it to be the word of god.
In practice tho i think there is a reason no one does this.
My general understanding is that you’re forgiven if you choose to accept Jesus. (Note that I am not christian, but was raised as such.) You are not required to accept salvation. Actions, by themselves, mean nothing; you can be a fantastic, moral person, and work all of your life to help other people, and without accepting Jesus you’re still damned. OTOH, if you have truly accepted Jesus, then ipso facto you’re going to work tirelessly to help people; actions are a natural consequence of the belief. Therefore, someone that acts contrary to the teaching of Jesus is not saved, because they do not have true belief.
For a real world example, Jimmy Carter would be a person that you could say would be saved (…if any of this was real); his effort demonstrates the faith he claims. OTOH, looking at all of the televangelists, you could quite reasonably say that their daily lives contradict the teachings of Jesus, and therefore no professed belief can ever result in their salvation.
Seems to me this is a protestant thing, i grew up Catholic and repentance was a major part of it. You don’t change and become a better person? Then no absolution for you.
Depends on the protestant branch, I’d heard repentance defined as “turning away from sin 100% and leaving it behind” but that kind of theology gets mixed up in “faith not works” and the idea that if you haven’t immediately asked forgiveness for every little time you mess up you’re going to hell until you do. Swear while falling down the stairs, then die in your living room? Hell.
Of course there’s also the opposite which is “once you accept Jesus there’s no possible way you can ever not be saved” which doesn’t match up with free will in my opinion.
Catholic here. Despite God’s forgiveness, Jesus never said salvation is guaranteed. As he said, “it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven”. And that’s just for the rich. There are other passages that emphasize the difficulty of gaining eternal life in Heaven, " the way is narrow", “you must take up your cross”, and so on. Christ’s death and resurrection made salvation possible in the first place. We couldn’t even have a hope of it without His help. He also gave us the way that we must follow to gain salvation now that it’s possible: belief in God and Christ, and following His commandments, given through the Church.
To put it in another way, we all have a relationship with God. That relationship was damaged through original sin in a way we could not repair on our own. God still has always loved us, but without Christ’s sacrifice, He could not forgive our betrayal through sin and therefore we remained separated from Him. Once Christ bore the burden of our sin and overcame it, that repaired humanity’s relationship with God overall and God is willing to forgive any sin, past or present, that we commit against Him. As long as we do not commit a serious sin, that relationship will stay intact. Two people in a relationship may do little things that annoy or lightly anger the other person, but we’ve all got stuff that aren’t “deal-breakers” with each other. But a serious sin done with full knowledge and of one’s own free will, which in the Catholic Church we call a mortal sin, is a “deal-breaker” that once again severs our own personal relationship with God and threatens our salvation. It’s basically a betrayal of God’s love. God has these rules and morality and such because He loves us so much He wants the absolute best for humanity and the world. Sin does damage to that, and mortal sin does damage to that in a big way. God is always willing to forgive, but in order for that to happen we have to show that we are sorry for breaking that relationship and promise/resolve that we will do our best to try not to do it again. We have to reconcile with God just as two people in a strained or broken relationship have to reconcile with each other. In the Catholic Church, we believe that reconciliation happens in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where we confess what we did to a priest, who is in the person of Jesus at that time, and make that resolution to not sin again. The priest then offers a penance as a way to basically “make it up” to God, or as a theologian I heard once say, “clean up the glass and repair the window we broke”, and the good relationship with God is restored. Basically, yeah, God is always willing to forgive if we ask for it… But that doesn’t mean we still can’t break that relationship. I’d always be willing to forgive a best friend if they were to betray me, but if they actually did that, I’d still be mad, and if they don’t respond to my calls offering that forgiveness, well, there’s not much more I can do to fix the relationship with my friend at that point if they don’t want to be forgiven.
This is an excellent summary. Thanks for the insight.
You have to be truly sorry for your sins and make an honest attempt at not doing them again. That being said if you sneak in a really sincere confession right before death, then by the book, you should go to heaven. This is a loooot like Christians last rights, the sacraments they use on the dying.
Fun fact anyone can preform last rights for a Christian should they request it. Reason being that people don’t always get to choose when they need their last rights so holy men may or may not be around.
Isn’t it last rites?
Indeed it is, I can’t spell, especially if I’m on mobile
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I come from a protestant tradition that says you can’t ever be good enough to be saved. Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life and acted as a substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf to make us righteous before God. All the work of salvation is done through Christ. If salvation required anything other than faith to save ourselves (e.g. being good), then his death and resurrection would be meaningless. So once we are made righteous by God through faith, God begins the work of sanctification (being made holy and more Christlike). We don’t believe this will fully happen in this life but is a process that we go through as we walk with God.
TLDR: It isn’t about doing good things to be saved but rather we’re saved and slowly begin to orient our lives around doing good things.
Oh snaps! A Christian question I’m qualified to answer! I’m not sure this will be five year old appropriate, because the cross is a difficult topic for theologians, but I’ll do my best. This will be an oversimplification.
A lot of people think the people think the cross and forgiveness are about going to have a heaven when you die, but that’s not really correct. The eternal life is more of a side effect.
The cross and resurrection are an invitation to partner together with God in the rescue of creation. Which means bringing the world back to the place God originally intended before humanity sinned.
In practical terms, it is the possibility of living like Jesus and treating others how he did. This way of living is so radical and transformative that not even death can overcome it.
Brilliantly said!! We could be friends I know it.
Thanks! Your answer on Hebrews was equally good and I suspect you’re right.
id have said that god doesnt really wager sins “badness” (anymore) . Since every sin divides us from god (that means hell) it doesnt really make sense to draw a line since nothing is worse than going to hell <-> beeing distant from god. So to answer the question: “why do you have to be good?”. We dont. because god sets this metric very differently than us. Also while it might look like a person is bad we just cant look inside them.
The eternal life is more of a side effect
sheesh i hope not :S
Its like disappointing your mother (or anyone else who loves you unconditionally). Even if you know she’ll forgive you, you want to good by your mother if not for the simple fact that you love each other.
Christians aren’t a monolith. There isn’t a single right answer here. Everyone practices religion in their own way. You’d have to ask this to Christians on a personal level.
bible is pretty monolith since it was merged together idk about that. new_testament update hit pretty clear on this
Except it isn’t. Not even priests of the same branch agree on how to interpret it, let alone the many balievers that haven’t even bothered to read the thing.
yes i agree, just wanted to make sure that we are talking about the god of the bible. Also priests cant give you salvation. gotta read and interpret it yourself.
You won’t be forgiven no matter what. If you carry on sinning, there is no more forgiveness. The only thing you can expect is to be thrown into outer darkness forever where you will be mourning and regretting your decision.
Put it this way: you drove drunk and killed someone. You’ve been given the death penalty by the judge. But a person called Jesus steps in and says “I’ll take his place. Let him go free”.
Would you ever drink drive again after someone died in your place to give you a second chance? Surely not! You would be sober, very grateful and even yet to help other people not make the same mistake.
It’s the same with sin. Jesus paid a HEAVY price to redeem you. Don’t spit in his face by carrying on with the same sins. Instead be grateful and find out how you should live instead.
Read the 10 commandments in Exodus 20. And also read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) to see how Jesus further explains and practices these.
The goal is to become holy like Jesus
Hope that helps.
Good ELI5 answer. The “push” to do good comes from the feeling of thankfulness that you don’t have to take a death penalty from a wrongdoing, someone else is taking it instead.
Another take: Imagine when a friend takes you for a dinner treat, you’d be thankful for them that they paid for your food (and the food is not necessarily free, someone actually paid for the food). You’d at least try to be nice to him, as a gesture of thankfulness, and you wouldn’t want hurt their feeling after they took you for a treat. Deliberately or not.
It varies significantly between denominations, I know that much. Guaranteed salvation is protestant-specific, at the very least, and isn’t even held by all denominations within.
Yeah, if you’re a more “reformed”/Calvinist type, broadly speaking, God is pre-determining who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. You can’t REALLY know for sure you’re among the chosen, and continuing to sin would be accruing evidence you’re NOT among the chosen. More or less.
Latter-day Saint beliefs are that one’s intent and internal desires play a role. Thus, a non-repentant person wouldn’t desire forgiveness, and wouldn’t be forced by Jesus to accept it.
Under their rules you’re allowed repenting after death, as well. Actions in life only determine which of the three tiers of heaven you go to if you don’t decide to send yourself to “outer darkness”.
You’re right, some repentance after death is technically an LDS doctrine, however it isn’t widely accepted. But yes, our concepts of heaven and hell are more inclusive than the standard Christian binary.
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries - Hebrews 10:26-27
There is a lot of debate about this verse and others like it, but this is the way I understand it.
First, let’s get a little more context. This particular book of the bible is actually a letter written to a Jewish community who has come to believe Jesus was the coming king written about in their Bible for thousands of years. This is wonderful news for them, but it also puts a target on their back from other Jews (who happen to be in political power) who disagree. They now have to make a choice, abandon this idea for the sake of safety, or hold true to what they believe is true which has had beautiful results in their lives, despite the risk of mistreatment and death. The writer is appealing to their Hebrew bible (what the Christians call the old testament) to show that walking away is not what they really want.
Here are the verses again with what they are surrounded by:
By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.
Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise. Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near.
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. For we know the one who said, “I will take revenge. I will pay them back.” He also said, “The Lord will judge his own people.” It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ [the messiah, coming king]. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever. So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. Hebrews 10:20-36
Hopefully this helps make this make more sense. This isn’t a blanket statement for all people of all time, it is about people considering abandoning their King for their own sake.
Also a little more about “the day of judgement” refered to here. This capital D “Day” is something referred to many times in the Hebrew bible. This is my understanding of the gist of it:
God doesn’t like the way us humans have decided to run the world. We kill and mistreat each other and the world around us. So he has decided to make everything right again and bring the world to peace. Great news if you are the one being mistreated, terrible news if you’re the one in power mistreating others. When the owner shows up, the managers are in trouble. The day of the Lord (the day of Yahweh)
The author of the letter is pleading with them to stay on the right side of history and not to align with the oppressors in power before God comes to make everything right.
Thanks for providing more context. The verse does take on a more encouraging tone with it and puts it inline with the other teachings of personally not wanting to sin as a result of a new relationship with God.
I was not aware of the debate surrounding this verse, I just thought it was the most straightforward in addressing the question.
In other words, to say “Jesus forgives your sins” is not really quite accurate.
Jesus forgives your sins when you come to him for forgiveness. If you tie one on and then confess and regret it, he forgives. If you, however, just do this to get forgiveness so you can tie one on every night, he knows.
Therefore,
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries - Hebrews 10:26-27
It’s not accurate in that your sins don’t really matter. Entry into heaven isn’t determined by acts, it’s determined by beliefs. All you have to do is to believe Jesus is lord and worship him and you’ll end up in heaven no matter what you do or did.
