- cross-posted to:
- weirdway
- cross-posted to:
- weirdway
This forum is primarily dedicated to higher quality posts and discussions. Those are welcome from everyone but will be filtered by the moderators. In order to foster more discussion, we have decided to start a weekly stickied discussion thread for the subreddit. This discussion thread is a place for people to post things that are more casual regarding subjective idealism, and things that are more exploratory. Here is a place for individuals to propose ideas and ask questions and figure out subjective idealism.
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“Weekly Discussion Thread: Week 2”
Originally posted by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-07-14 02:55:00 (6n2wbq).
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I have found there is a neat trick to formulating a magick spell that helps one avoid bad outcomes. Because I notice that I make a lot of assumptions below my own level of awareness, I realize that sometimes the stated spell intent can become inconsistent with what I really want, especially if I am later exposed to the more true situation along with all (or more of) the possibilities instead of only the few possibilities I could readily imagine at the time of the spell. So there are many ways to mitigate the downsides, but one I find is really good for me is to add this bit at the end of each spell:
“… and I will be very satisfied with the result.”
So this way the spell cannot produce a bad outcome, because satisfaction guarantee is baked into the formula. So then even a somewhat clumsily formulated spell based on some false assumptions will not produce a nasty backlash. In this way of doing things the worst that can happen is a substandard result (that’s attributable to the spell anyway), but not an outright bad result.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-07-15 20:23:07 (dk903va)
That’s a nice trick. How often do you do spell style magic (presumably in the vein of chaos magic?) as opposed to imagination-style magic (i.e. imagining that your will is so and trying to impose that imagination on your waking experience directly)?
Originally commented by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-07-19 01:20:09 (dkdsg2f)
How often do you do spell style magic (presumably in the vein of chaos magic?) as opposed to imagination-style magic (i.e. imagining that your will is so and trying to impose that imagination on your waking experience directly)?
I do a little old spell remembrance and honoring mini-ritual once every other day or so, whenever I feel like it.
I cast spells depending on circumstance. It’s not a regular practice. Sometimes once a month. Sometimes once a day for a few days. Etc.
I do what I imagine you call imagination-style magick pretty much constantly. For example, as I am typing this reply, I am aware of my bodily kinesthetic sensations and I am constantly smoothing them out. The second I step into heat, I am usually (not always) practicing lowering it. When cold I am usually but not always practicing warming up. Sometimes I practice tolerating the condition.
People say there are some “psychoactive” substances. I like to think that it’s me who is psychoactive. I am psychoactive all by myself.
Contemplating is also something that can be done nearly all the time. Like when I am playing computer games, I reflect on why am I playing it this way and not some other way. I try to gain insight into my proclivities and I wonder which, if any, should I change.
Although I have to say that when I cast spells, I still regard it as imagination style magick. To imagine and to conceive should in good measure be synonymous, if you ask me. Whatever I conceive of, as I describe it for a spell, I also have imaginative visions of it. I remind myself I can only change myself, but changing myself is more than enough (so I banish any lingering ideas that I am throwing a spell “out there”). There is not a whole lot of obvious/observable ritual to it.
I expect most of my spells to be enduring mental structures which continually affect my experience. So the idea is to change the automagic subconscious/unconscious habitual aspect of my own mind that’s responsible for world-as-I-know-it-production.
I sometimes do similar things with my body also. Like if I want to change the structure of my bones, I don’t want the effect to vanish the second I am no longer actively imagining it.
So let’s say for practice I focus on heat reduction continually. However, for day to day living, it would be more practical to cast a spell that then allowed you to forget temperature and focus on something else, because the desired effect would become automagic.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-07-19 02:27:02 (dkdwa6z)
So can I ask what exactly is the difference between spell-magic and imagination-style? In terms of what you’re doing while casting/intending or anything else that could help? I was under the impression that all magick is imagination style.
When I try to make a change, I usually just close my eyes and try to assert the fact that “this is happening to me and will continue to” and surround it with feelings/emotions and maybe even visualization. I’ve only been doing this for 2-3 months so even though I have gotten some results, it’s not where I want it to be yet (or fully realized if that’s the right term)
I’m wondering if I should practice intending the fact once and going about my life, or do an almost daily session where I assert the fact I desire (without re-intending the initial state of course), as a sort of “intensifying” of the specific pattern I’d like to see incorporated into my experience.
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-04 03:19:13 (dl491oh)
It is not the case that there is one general method for manifestation which function most efficiently for everyone.
What work for you is conditioned by the specificities of your own frame of mind.
Therefore the most appropriated course of action is to carry on personal investigations with the porpose to figure out what work for you.
Eventually you also will become able to adjust the methods for what suitable your preference better.
Originally commented by u/Veneficvs on 2017-08-04 07:51:41 (dl4p77u)
So can I ask what exactly is the difference between spell-magic and imagination-style?
That’s a distinction me and Aesir seem to agree on. Basically as I understand it (you should also ask Aesir about it), one way to achieve a change is to allow you to directly feel the change happening. This is difficult in some cases, but that’s what I assume we take to be “imagination style.” So for example, if I am sick, I directly begin to feel healthy. Or if I am cold, I directly begin to feel that I am warm. The change should be instant and direct. It would be the way things would work in a very malleable lucid dream, where there is no need to beat around the bush, but instead the thing I would want is happening instantly and directly. In contrast to the above, spell magick is like planting a seed and watching it grow. So there would be some manner of activity, be it with incantations or without, with some ritual or without and anything in between, and this would create a long-term idea which would begin operating in the subconscious mind. This idea can also be fed later by a “past spells honoring and remembrance” ritual. The change in this case emerges to conscious awareness from a region of the mind below consciousness. So, gradually, simply from knowing about the existence and power of the “seed state,” the changes come into the conscious awareness as the seed state matures.
The difference is that in the second case, it’s almost a “fire and forget” operation, except of course you don’t really forget, but you have enough mental space to go about doing other things. In the first case, the concentration is usually total (at least at first), and there is very little left to do much else, especially anything that itself requires conscious focus. So for example, I can focus on cooling my temperature perceptions down as I walk around on a hot day, because walking around doesn’t require much conscious focus. But I couldn’t solve a hard math problem at the same time as I was focusing on cooling down. At the same time, with the spell style magick, once I’m done with the casting event (which doesn’t need to be heavily ritualized) during which time I would also need to focus, from then on I am free to do whatever as I know deep down the seed is “there” and “working.” I have an expectation now that a certain meaningful act took place and this expectation toward results is precisely the way it operates. But in this one doesn’t have to constantly keep the expectation in mind. It’s enough to be in a state of mind where, if wanted, you can remember what was done and still agree to the expectation that was produced by that spell. There is no need to actually focus on remembering every second or anything. Just so long as you know you could easily remember, that’s good enough. From then on there has to be a feeling of deep understanding in how your own mind works, and trust, and expectation.
I’m wondering if I should practice intending the fact once and going about my life, or do an almost daily session where I assert the fact I desire (without re-intending the initial state of course), as a sort of “intensifying” of the specific pattern I’d like to see incorporated into my experience.
It all depends on how you conceive of your magickal acts. If you think magick is like a burst of energy that is fighting against some other energy, naturally you’ll need to replenish it. However, nothing forces you to conceive of your magickal acts in such a limited way.
If an ex-physicalist is not careful there is a tendency to carry over conceptions from physicalism into magickal practice. Really physicalism conditions the mind to such a strong degree that even if one agrees that it has flaws, physicalist expectations can easily subtly assert themselves still for a time. Habits can be hard to change. Some people find it hard to quit smoking or to quit biting their nails, and what about such a deeply entrenched metaphysical habit as physicalism? I mean most people don’t even consciously know which ideas and behaviors correspond to that habit, so how would they even soften it? That’s why contemplation and introspection are so important.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-08-04 09:38:56 (dl4uncm)
In contrast to the above, spell magick is like planting a seed and watching it grow. So there would be some manner of activity, be it with incantations or without, with some ritual or without and anything in between, and this would create a long-term idea which would begin operating in the subconscious mind. This idea can also be fed later by a “past spells honoring and remembrance” ritual. The change in this case emerges to conscious awareness from a region of the mind below consciousness. So, gradually, simply from knowing about the existence and power of the “seed state,” the changes come into the conscious awareness as the seed state matures.
This view is a bit foreign to me, so I’m going to try to break it down.
It seems to me that this implies that the dynamic between conscious and subconscious isn’t just one of focused-practice v. habit. This spell model of magic has some different assumptions about the mind. The imagination model would suggest that to transform a phenomena, you need to actively get involved in that perception and conception and transform those habits and habituate a new mode of perception and conception around that phenomena.
The spell model suggests that you can just want something to change, have a specific ritual technique/technology that you perform (as complex or simple as you’d like), and then some background subconscious process/creature/force will transform your perception or conception for you (much like pushing a button by the door rings a bell in the house for you - it’s an externalized sort of power). I think this spell model is much more of a technological view of magic than a psychic view, so to speak.
I want to know what those assumptions are. What is the entity or force that takes the message of your spell/ritual and knows its meaning and then gets to work transforming the world for you? Can this entity or force communicate symbolically back with you in your life in your view?
Originally commented by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-08-07 08:07:16 (dl99ko4)
What is the entity or force that takes the message of your spell/ritual and knows its meaning and then gets to work transforming the world for you?
It’s you. It’s your own expectation. It’s your own ability to recognize a certain possible result or a certain range of possible results as being in accordance with the intent of a spell.
Can this entity or force communicate symbolically back with you in your life in your view?
It’s called introspection. :)
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-08-07 09:00:03 (dl9by2x)
I’ve merged this with our other conversation here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/weirdway/comments/6pkgir/discussion_thread/dlagkzm/
Originally commented by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-08-08 03:05:40 (dlagnwd)
some background subconscious process/creature/force will transform your perception or conception for you
Like u/mindseal said, it’s you. I think the whole idea of SI is to eliminate any notions of separate entities, even notions that the subconscious is something separate. Like when you dream, it is you who has created the dream, but we don’t accredit it to some outside force just because we did not actively shape it.
I like the way the patterning of experience explains it. Especially this
The pattern will overlap with other patterns you are holding onto. This is why it does not immediately become your experience. It is immediately true but your other patterns fit it into a time framework.
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-08 00:58:32 (dla9l74)
Like u/mindseal said, it’s you. I think the whole idea of SI is to eliminate any notions of separate entities, even notions that the subconscious is something separate. Like when you dream, it is you who has created the dream, but we don’t accredit it to some outside force just because we did not actively shape it.
At an ultimate level this is true, but there are still intermediary illusory entities operating in your world if you are othering at all. So when you drop a rock. You don’t consciously drag the rock to the ground. It just falls. Your subconscious is doing that automatically for you. Or when you have a conversation with a person. You aren’t consciously coming up with thoughts and words and a background life for this character. And yet they stand there talking to you about it. That’s because there’s some subconscious process/creature/force operating in the background of your mind generating that character.
Originally commented by u/AesirAnatman on 2017-08-08 01:33:05 (dlabers)
So for example, if I am sick, I directly begin to feel healthy. Or if I am cold, I directly begin to feel that I am warm. The change should be instant and direct.
Ah I see, it’s similar to what Neville Goddard talks about. So basically that entails that everyone is doing that all the time, whether it be consciously or not.
once I’m done with the casting event (which doesn’t need to be heavily ritualized) during which time I would also need to focus, from then on I am free to do whatever as I know deep down the seed is “there” and “working.”
Thanks for clearing that up, I guess the word “spell” carried some additional weight and kind of threw me off a but it’s similar to the approach I take, different metaphors for the same thing I guess. I’m seeing that a lot recently, especially upon quick glances into religious ideals, but just quick ones before shit starts getting whacky.
Really physicalism conditions the mind to such a strong degree that even if one agrees that it has flaws, physicalist expectations can easily subtly assert themselves still for a time
That it does, even now sometimes a “voice of ration” will come into my head as an obvious attempt of trying hard to hold on to convention. It’s no different than any other addiction, where the brain will come up with excuses to relapse and voice them as ration and reason.
That’s why contemplation and introspection are so important
Yup, it can be a bit scary at first, especially when you unearth something previously unseen or unnoticed, but the benefits are invaluable. There’s an article on the importance on that here that’s worth a read.
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-06 09:22:46 (dl7xbv5)
That it does, even now sometimes a “voice of ration” will come into my head as an obvious attempt of trying hard to hold on to convention. It’s no different than any other addiction, where the brain will come up with excuses to relapse and voice them as ration and reason.
What’s funny is that you’re attributing agency to your brain here, which is exactly a feature of physicalism. ;) I don’t know if you’re doing this as a joke or if it’s a serious slip up.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-08-06 15:36:06 (dl8b9rt)
A little bit of both, unintentionally the latter. I guess physicalist terminology is still embedded in me.
I understand the brain isn’t the center of consciousness so I guess a better way to phrase it is “I’ll sometimes have feelings of self-doubt”. Which isn’t exclusive to just trying to change experience, these feelings often arise in other aspects of my life so it only makes sense that it would also translate into this, and this case it’s me holding on to ideals of convention. I guess more introspection is needed :)
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-06 23:31:37 (dl8m6z9)
Just one more question about this if you don’t mind
I have an expectation now that a certain meaningful act took place and this expectation toward results is precisely the way it operates.
Is “expectation” really the right word for it? It gives off the impression that there needs to be some kind of positive attitude for it, or a forcing of feelings. With the idle tides of passing moods mixed with sometimes lingering physicalist ideals from years of conditioning, sometimes it’s hard to “expect” results a few days after intending or even a few hours after. I find that even if I do doubt myself, I experience some results. I don’t know whether manifestations being fully realized have to do with my “expectations” or it’s just the fact that I’ve only just begun practicing this. And when I say doubt myself, I mean doubt my ability to assert facts into my experience.
I do like the “planting the seed” metaphor. That resonates a lot with the way I tend to look at magick/intending.
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-11 08:42:57 (dlg60jr)
Is “expectation” really the right word for it? It gives off the impression that there needs to be some kind of positive attitude for it, or a forcing of feelings.
Or a certain kind of knowing and understanding.
With the idle tides of passing moods mixed with sometimes lingering physicalist ideals from years of conditioning, sometimes it’s hard to “expect” results a few days after intending or even a few hours after. I find that even if I do doubt myself, I experience some results.
Intent is never truly lost, and so even if you have some contradictory intentionality, your pro-goal intent is not lost in the face of anti-goal intentionality. That’s why it’s possible to experience some measure of a positive result even despite doubts, etc.
I don’t know whether manifestations being fully realized have to do with my “expectations” or it’s just the fact that I’ve only just begun practicing this.
Be careful what kind of causality story you spin. :) You have many options, but some causality stories are weaker than the others.
Don’t forget that deep down you are secretly omniscient already. Of course you shouldn’t take my word for it.
And when I say doubt myself, I mean doubt my ability to assert facts into my experience.
But you cannot doubt your ability to face all your doubts. Even if there are 10 thousand doubts, each one a demon in its own right, you can “stand” (not literally) there and face them. Your heart should be able to overwhelm countless universes. Never mind this tiny and pathetic universe right here. Consider your heart as an infinite gale storm, or a vast expanse, and this entire universe is just a tiny grain of sand that’s helplessly caught in the expanse of your heart.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-08-11 12:29:53 (dlgh3kl)
even if you have some contradictory intentionality, your pro-goal intent is not lost in the face of anti-goal intentionality
I feel like there’s an addiction to physicalism, and the response to that is to re-manifest the undesirable situation. I guess then my goal is too rid my mind of physicalism but I’m not too sure where to start.
Also what is a “past spells honoring and remembrance” ritual?
Sorry for all the questions, there isn’t exactly a lot of literature (that I know of) on this stuff, other than LOA, but I’m not to fond of the ‘energies’ and other terminologies that are usually brought up. But if you do know of some good books I’d be happy to hear :)
Originally commented by u/WrongStar on 2017-08-13 06:21:27 (dlj6a1w)