“Inalienable Rights: Part I The Basic Argument” Against the Employer-Employee System and for Workplace Democracy

https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/

This article discusses how the contemporary system of labor relations treats employees as things rather than persons thus denying their humanity, and violating rights they have because of their personhood. Instead, work should be democratically controlled by the people doing it

@workreform

  • @CuddlyCassowary
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    61 year ago

    So we treat people like things, and companies as people. Fanfuckingtastic.

    • @unfreeradical
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      11 year ago

      Simply, owners demand for themselves more than they pretend to allow for workers.

      • @CuddlyCassowary
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        21 year ago

        I was mostly referring to the Citizens United legislation, but yeah, your point still stands!

        • @unfreeradical
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          11 year ago

          I see. I think the particular case is just one event revealing a problem that is much older and deeper.

  • @unfreeradical
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    1 year ago

    Ellerman, according to my understanding, has tended to approach liberal defenses of private property by attaching further abstractions and obfuscation that produce no particular further clarity above established leftist criticisms.

    • J LouOP
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      1 year ago

      Ellerman’s approach actually clarifies how the system of property and contract works under capitalism and avoids some basic mistakes that are pervasive in Marxism and neoclassical economics. Furthermore, his argument is significantly stronger and more decisive than established leftist criticisms. It establishes that wage labor violates workers’ rights even if it is voluntary.

      What specific point in the article did you disagree with?

      • @unfreeradical
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        11 year ago

        Mostly, Ellerman’s approach is weighty and unwieldy, by capturing or complicating constructs that leftists have identified as unnecessary, unrobust, and outright fictitious.

        Most leftists have no need for recovering natural rights, nor even have need of natural rights.

        Workers might simply rebel against the exploiters, because workers have no wish and no need for being exploited.

        • J LouOP
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          1 year ago

          There is a moral principle that legal responsibility should be assigned to the de facto responsible party. Ellerman shows that the employer-employee contract under capitalism is inherently based on violating this fundamental moral principle. Natural rights are just rights that follow from certain basic principles of justice.

          The capitalist account is that workers consent to wage labor. Ellerman’s argument is necessary to show that capitalism even if it was voluntary is unjust

          • @unfreeradical
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            1 year ago

            Since workers were born into a world that affirms private property, they obviously never gave it their consent.

            It is just a fiction that developed its own life by the whip, blade, and gun, and also by the pen and press.

            Most of the work of leftist criticisms has been simply deconstructing entrenched doctrine, to help expand consciousness, and to build capacity for liberation.

            Ellerman seems to prefer instead constructing his own layer of obfuscation. It may antagonize the wage system, but it declines to deconstruct the deeper nature of moral ideals, social constructs, and legal frameworks.

            It is worth becoming familiar with leftist criticisms of natural rights.

            • J LouOP
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              1 year ago

              The capitalist account is that wage labor is voluntary by any legally usable standard. Even if elevated standards of voluntariness could be made coherent and legally usable, a UBI would resolve such critiques; therefore, they are not per se critiques of capitalism.

              What specific layer of obfuscation are you referring to? What specific criticism of natural rights do you have in mind? I have read many criticisms of natural rights, but none of them seem to apply Ellerman’s particular formulation

              • @unfreeradical
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                1 year ago

                Private property is a construct.

                Natural rights is a construct.

                Neither represents a transcendent truth.

                The best account for natural rights is that it provides elegant packaging for values and norms already shared. The danger emerges because whoever controls the packaging is the one who also determines what becomes elegantly packaged.

                • J LouOP
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                  1 year ago

                  In a sense, all ethics are constructs of our minds. If this were grounds to reject human rights (it isn’t), it would be a reason against any reason to do anything (e.g. abolish capitalism) including egoism. The transcendent truth about ethics is unknowable. The best we can do is build moral theories on appealing moral principles.
                  Inalienability is a theory not merely a catalogue of personal views. Hegel’s inalienability critique of slavery shows this with nonsense added to not attack wage labor