- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Update from DBrady, creator of Relay for Reddit (not me!):
Update: Relay will continue to operate from July 1st. It will be moving to a subscription model in the coming weeks but, for now, it’s available for everyone to use free of charge and ad-free!
Hi all,
Sorry for the delay in updating everyone on the future of Relay. It’s taken until now for me to work things out.
For the time being, Relay is going to be free for everyone to use (this means no fees and no ads) while i continue optimising API calls and finalising subscription prices. I’m working hard to get call volumes down and i’ll try my best to hit as low a price point as possible, at least for a base tier that covers 85-90% of users. At the higher end of usage it’s looking like i’ll need to implement a few different price points but this is still something i need to figure out. I’ll let you know when i do.
Thanks again for all the incredible messages over the last week. I’ve seen them all and they really mean a lot - knowing how long some people have been using Relay for is amazing. For anyone moving on from here, thanks for supporting Relay over the last 12 years - i’m forever grateful.
Relay Pro (should now be free to use): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=reddit.news
Relay video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2sTb4GzEz4
Cheers,
Dave
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Some people have trouble letting go I guess. First of all, after all that has happened why any developer would choose to continue doing business with Reddit is beyond me. Reddit has demonstrated they will shaft you on a moment’s notice (ok a month’s notice), go back on their word, lie about developers for PR points, etc. Reddit is not a good business partner.
Second, who is this even for? What percentage of Relay users are going to pay for a limited version of Reddit with usage limits? The only reason Reddit is making these deals with Relay and Narwhal is because Reddit thinks they won’t succeed in staying alive. Reddit thinks the vast majority of Relay/Narwhal users will decide its too expensive to use these apps to get a worse experience, so will end up on the official app. Reddit gets to hold these up as examples of reasonable developers who were willing to work with Reddit, unlike those crying babies that are closing their apps. And if Reddit is wrong, and Relay/Narwhal stay profitable and active, then we’re just back to point 1 - Reddit will just turn the screws on the API pricing until they get crushed.
This just feels like an abusive relationship. Dave just needs to accept reality - Reddit TPA’s are dead (and Reddit as a whole isn’t long for this world either). I’ve used Relay for years, very disappointed in the developer. I’m still deleting July 1.
Exactly this. Relay was a great app and I will miss it and Reddit. I would love for Dbrady to start fresh with Relay for Lemmy but I imagine that is quite a bit of work and maybe he just doesn’t feel up to it. I wish him the best no matter what happens!
Thanks for this well-written roundup of what’s going on. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I just hope the dev doesn’t rack up debt in the time the app is free…
It does seem like Reddit is giving these apps some rope to hang on to… Whether they’ll hang in the bad way remains to be seen.
The instant removal of ads is definitely coming from Reddit. Reddit is already putting on the screws, in a way, preventing these devs from making any ad-revenue in the interrim.
Until the subscription option actually becomes available, the devs will have NO source of income.
I uninstalled Relay and moved on. Kinda wished DBrady would have done the same. I don’t want Reddit get paid for their shitty behaviour.
I just feel bad for the devs of TPA. They created so much value for reddit when reddit didn’t even HAVE an app. Then reddit shafts them so hard for all the work they put in. Fuck reddit.
Reddit gets to hold these up as examples of reasonable developers who were willing to work with Reddit, unlike those crying babies that are closing their apps.
This deserves to be repeated. Like… I get why one would want to not let their project die, but we all know this is exactly what’s going to happen. These few who remain will funnel a ton of money into Reddit’s pocket for a worse experience all so that they can be used to further slander the devs of the 3PAs who were forced out from the API changes. In a couple months when the last few 3PAs inevitably go under, I don’t know if a single tear will be shed because the writing on the wall is so obvious.
I also use Relay, and I’m not sure how I feel about this move. I’m using reddit less and less since the blackout, and mostly just to check on the protest at this point. I love the Relay app, and DBrady is an incredible dev, but I refuse to give money to reddit after this whole debacle, especially for an app that will be stripped of it’s full capability,
Nearly agree with everything you said.
But maybe Reddit is okay with a few 3rd party apps surviving if it means they can charge such a ridiculous premium on API requests. Perhaps they didn’t think any dev would be crazy enough to take them up on their offer. But at that point, they’re raking in so much money that they might not care those users are on a 3rd party app.
That’s a fair point. If Relay and co hang on to a few thousand users and pay a cost per month 5x what it’s worth to reddit to have those users on its app, your right reddit might be like fuck it this works for us. At the end of the day, whatever is most profitable to reddit. For the most part, that means using the official reddit app so reddit can track you. But if some dumb devs are willing to pay more than Reddit would get from direct data harvesting, let them go. No, I think your right.
I think a few apps is key though, they want the majority of their users locked in.
It’s disheartening that they are the ones that got screwed and yet they keep supporting the company…
It make sense in the short term. Even if this only works for 6 or 12 months, they might make more to live on in that time, than they would converting the app to Lemmy right now, simply due to the massive difference in user-count.
It might be the “right” call to stick with Reddit, getting the scraps that are still there, while Lemmy is still only just taking off. They can always jump ship later, though others will have a head start by then.
Ethically? Different matter.
I’m not sure even short term thinking makes sense here. Dbrady had to remove ads in order to get access to the API. That means no income for him until he gets the subscription up and running. I assume he worked out a deal with Reddit where he’s not incurring API charges in the meantime, provided he gets the subscription version of the app up and running by some definitive date. If not, if he’s eating those API charges just with delayed billing, and hoping he can convert enough subscriptions to backfill it, whoa boy that sounds like a risky bet. In either case, he is going to spend the next few weeks working to optimize API calls and figure out the different subscription tiers and get that all set up. That sounds like a lot of work when he’s getting no (or potentially negative) income.
I don’t know, unless Dbrady is just so emotionally invested in his app that he can’t let it go, or he is financially reliant on it and doesn’t think there are any viable alternatives for himself in the short/medium term, it just doesn’t make sense to me. It just seems like an enormous risk hoping a subscription model is going to pan out, not even mentioning putting all your chips into the basket of Reddit acting in good faith moving forward, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
This is the answer. From the devs point of view it’s getting the most value out of the product they have spent years making.
For Reddit it’s a good PR move.
They, and the Infinity dev, will just get fucked by Reddit in some way. Again.
And narwhal. I can’t see this working in the long run. They are only granting access to a subset of content, in exchange for a price that people don’t have to pay if they use the “real” app. This is doomed to slowly bleed users and die.
I can’t believe that with the API pricing the way it is, it’s financially viable to continue developing this app. It only makes sense if Spez offered this (and some other developers) a backroom deal (complete with NDA).
Spez has shown himself to be a lying, vindictive douche. If he can make Christian Selig look bad (for exposing reddit and Spez himself for what he is), it’s something he would appear to relish. The way Spez doubled-down on his vindictive and defamatory statements during the AMA just goes to show that there’s no level he won’t sink to.
Also, if the API pricing was lowered - it’s a last minute sign of (quietly) back-tracking given the immense backlash it has caused.
The initial API pricing was meant to drive out all reddit clients. It seems to me that reddit clients still operating after July the 1st have received (much) lower API pricing (or are not being charged at all - in the case of RedReader). It’s just too expensive otherwise.
That’s a good point. Apollo clearly hit Reddit where it hurt, thanks to both its developer’s profits and recognition from both Apple and the wider iOS community. With his ego, it makes sense that Steve Huffmyownfarts wasn’t able to take the ‘insult’.
This seems quite clever by Reddit. It looks like there’s some deal that if they remove ads from their apps they get free api usage for a few months. Seems suspicous that both apps doing this have removed ads.
This will soften the blow a little for Reddit as now at least 1 decent sized 3rd party app on each platform (Android/IOS) will continue to work for a while.
A clever PR move that changes nothing.
API fee is not free, only delayed. I have no idea how the devs will handle the combined bill when it comes. It’ll be a huge bill while income from subscriptions have not really picked up yet. I would not take this risk even if someone give me Appollo source code for free.
I don’t think they will be paying anything until they implement subscriptions. They are exempt for now in exchange for removing advertising from their apps.
Once they implement subscriptions then they get income to cover the cost of the api.
You’re right that this is a PR move rather than a genuine attempt to work with devs, but I think it would have been more clever if Reddit had done this three weeks ago, when they could have undermined the “this will kill third party apps” narrative. Instead, they waited until Huffman had spouted off about how he admires Elon, who killed Twitter’s third party apps, and how the API was “never meant” for third party apps. Basically, he has expressed a personal desire to see third party apps killed, and usually the CEO’s opinion overrules official company statements with this kind of thing. So now, it’s going to be hard for the company to turn around and claim that killing third party apps isn’t their end goal.
The new API requires you to remove ads regardless, they could get banned by reddit for serving their own ads.
Yep you are correct. The new terms require you to earn no income to use the api for free. It’s probably not some sort of deal then.
Wonder why the devs waited until the last minute to announce it. Makes sense for devs to try and ring some final value from their app.
I will continue to work - partially. No nsfw, and usage limits. So all the subs that have gone nsfw in protest are just not gonna show up, unless the app is scraping the rss feed or something.
Reddit has been forcible cracking protest-NSFW subs, though. They’re messaging mod teams and threatening removal and replacement for “turning a sub NSFW” or for encouraging users to submit NSFW content, if the sub wasn’t NSFW to begin with.
@fruitcake119 I thought Reddit intentionally doesn’t funnel ads to or allow 3rd party apps to have ads?
It doesn’t, but several apps were previously funded by sourcing their own ads. That’s why the double-whammy of Reddit hiking API charges to 20X their own costs and prohibiting third-party apps from showing their own ads was such a problem - by prohibiting ads, Reddit was saying that apps effectively had to be funded by charging users, they couldn’t just go find outside sources of funding.
I believe Reddit did not provide their ads through the API (aka the ones integrated into the feeds), but some apps still had generic app ads (like the little banner ones provided by Google AdSense glued at the bottom of the app).
Marketers care an unreasonable amount about how their ads show up from a UI/X perspective. It’s meaningless, but these people stake their roles on it, convincing entire industries it matters. Then you get some marketers who are laid off entering consultation and keeping the wheels turning on these ideas…
Ask me how I know 😮💨
Anyways, imagine Reddit looking to go IPO and asking their customers (marketers buying ads) what they can do to improve their services to these patrons, and you get /u/spez breaking his back to please them ahead of the customers their patrons would reach.
Oof
Relay was my go-to app… But I’m done with Reddit. Make Relay for Lemmy! Re…mmy?!
I don’t see how this would be successful. It’s a gutted version of the API as it is. Sanitized. No NSFW subs. Reddit as it was is dead and even if Apollo and BaconReader came back I would still not go back.
This subscription costs will end up in Reddits pocket. Why would you want to do that?
Anyone considering : cut bait and move on.
It’s displaying reddit content still? For money? Lmfao
Long time user of Relay, and I really feel for DBrady - He’s being baited so hard into thinking there’s an easy way out of this for Relay. The bargaining phase hitting hard.
It’s sad that these devs don’t realize that they are being used.
Even with a subscription cost for the API, users still won’t be getting any NSFW posts. That includes porn obviously but there was also tons of non-porn NSFW content in subs like /r/drugs, /r/sex, etc.
Piggybacking on the point: People keep repeating Reddit’s line that non-porn NSFW will be allowed, but every time anybody (including Selig) asked how Reddit will manage to differentiate types of NSFW, it’s been radio silence on Reddit’s end.
Despite Reddit’s promises I do think it will end up being a blanket NSFW ban.
I think it will cause all sorts of problems if Reddit tries to actually slice the line. What’s the difference between art and porn? Would a hypothetical subreddit like “artistic photos of naked women” be porn? If not, what about photos of topless protests? Could a subreddit made entirely of photos of topless protestors be considered NSFW but not porn? What about something like a subreddit of clothed women sticking their bare feet at the camera- would that be able to simply not mark itself NSFW since it isn’t actually showing anything explicitly sexual?
When there’s no official line it’s so much easier to mark things NSFW out of an abundance of caution. When marking things NSFW or determining porn from non-porn NSFW actually affects user experience it’s going to become a headache for all involved.
This is the first news I’ve read about relay, how come it’s so much later than all the other apps?
And I did like relay, easy and to the point.
Apart from having to pay for a neutered Reddit experience due to nsfw being disabled completely… actually, “apart” is the wrong word, that’s just it. You’d be paying for a neutered Reddit experience. You literally are going to have to pay a monthly fee to scroll r/all once a day for 30 days.
