My broader point here is that if your goal is to get leftists to vote for Biden, trying to explain why you think Biden is good is counterproductive. Instead, explain how leftist change is impossible via electoralism
If someone’s mindset is such that it’s unnecessary to talk about what actions a politician has taken when deciding whether to vote for them, I’m comfortable with not being able to appeal to that person.
Honestly my goal isn’t to “get” anyone to do anything. I am trying to communicate the reality I see in front of me. Obviously I hope that that will produce a result and a better outcome in the real world, if the reality I see seems compelling to someone else as a useful model, but I’m not into the idea of trying to move away from “this is how I see it and why” and into something else, to try to engineer a stated result in some other person. They can make their own decisions, as can you.
For leftists, generally, continuing down this descent into fascism that is happening slowly under Biden and rapidly under Trump is unnacceptable.
What are fascist things that Biden has done? How has he moved the needle towards fascism? Maybe this is where some of the disconnect between our views on him comes from.
That wasn’t the point, though. It’s necessary to look at the actions a politician has taken. The fact that you believe it necessary to “uhmm, akshually” someone who has expressed disapproval of Biden from the left is condescending and counterproductive.
As for the fascist and fasc-adjacent things Biden has done, there are quite a few. Enabling and funding a genocide, labeling protestors as anti-semetic, further entrenching US Imperialism, building Nationalism, and more have resulted in continued cancerous growth of fascists domestically.
In addition to overt actions, it’s important to look at what causes fascism itself. Fascism is Capitalism in decline, a violent assertion of Capital. As the head of state, failing to push back against Capitalism is also failing to push back against it’s decline, and thus is why I say voting for Biden is slow fascism rather than rapid fascism.
The US will inevitably continue down the train of fascism until derailed, which is accomplished via outside pressure. Voting for Biden buys time, but does not prevent fascism.
As for the fascist and fasc-adjacent things Biden has done, there are quite a few. Enabling and funding a genocide, labeling protestors as anti-semetic, further entrenching US Imperialism, building Nationalism, and more have resulted in continued cancerous growth of fascists domestically.
Forgot about the crime bill and like most of his pre-presidential actions, can’t forget about those
It’s necessary to look at the actions a politician has taken.
You literally told me that my message listing actions Biden has taken was unnecessary.
The fact that you believe it necessary to “uhmm, akshually” someone who has expressed disapproval of Biden from the left is condescending and counterproductive.
Can I do this too? If someone posts a message I disagree with, can I say they’re punching me, and silencing dissent, and "uhmm, askhusally"ing my message, and counterproductive?
Dude. I disagree with you. It’s allowed. Stop trying to imply that it isn’t, and either engage with what I’m saying, or don’t. It seems like you finally are engaging now, so maybe it’s late for me to be saying that, but it’s just irritating me that you’re trying to find so big a variety of words to use to imply that I shouldn’t be allowed to say a viewpoint you don’t agree with.
entrenching US Imperialism
Quick unrelated question: What’s your feeling on the war in Ukraine?
As the head of state, failing to push back against Capitalism
Voting for Biden buys time, but does not prevent fascism.
What would be a good end state, to you? Like what would be a good American system, if you had the perfect politicians in office and could set up the economy and the structure of government exactly as you wanted?
People do not need to hear from you to know what Biden has done. You can discuss individual actions, sure, but you provided a list you believed was good for the purposes of showing why you believe Biden is good.
You can disagree, I just find it condescending that you seem to imply you see things others aren’t.
As for Ukraine, what specifically are you asking? Do you think opposing US imperialism must mean I support Russia, or something? My “feeling” is that war is bad and unjustifiable. Violence is purely justified against oppressors. I believe in Nation’s right to self-determination.
I want Socialism, and eventually, Communism. Worker ownership of the Means of Production. Democracy of, by, and for the Proletariat. Do you have any specific questions? We could be here all day otherwise and I am not sure there would be a point.
You can disagree, I just find it condescending that you seem to imply you see things others aren’t.
Okay, so it’s not punching left or silencing dissent if I disagree? Just want to get that clarified. You can call me condescending, that’s fine; I probably am.
As for Ukraine, what specifically are you asking? Do you think opposing US imperialism must mean I support Russia, or something? My “feeling” is that war is bad and unjustifiable. Violence is purely justified against oppressors. I believe in Nation’s right to self-determination.
Should the US send weapons to them? Or is that more imperialism? I am just curious; you brought up imperialism, so I’m curious what that means.
I want Socialism, and eventually, Communism. Worker ownership of the Means of Production. Democracy of, by, and for the Proletariat. Do you have any specific questions? We could be here all day otherwise and I am not sure there would be a point.
I’m just curious about what your viewpoint is. Not sure why that’s a problem when arguing back and forth with hostility wasn’t, but you can stop any time, if you don’t like it.
What’s a country which has implemented the model you’d like to see in the US? Or would this be the US doing it for the first time that it’s been implemented on a big scale in the way you’d like to see it implemented?
My point is that bringing up the stuff Biden has done, without intention to discuss it or any prior relevance to the conversation, is just sealioning.
As for sending US weapons or not, I fail to see how that relates to Imperialism. You’re being extremely dishonest right now, because you don’t actually have any points.
If the people of Ukraine want weapons, then sure. If the people of Ukraine don’t want weapons, then no. Like I said, whatever the people on the ground want, I support.
Sure, countries have had similar structures. None have been exactly what I want, so I’m not sure why giving an example is important or relevant. Every country is going to have a unique path to Socialism and then Communism.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
I’m not into the idea of just “yes it is” “no it isn’t” 'yes it is" “no it isn’t.” It’s a waste of time. I feel like I understand your viewpoint on Biden at this point, and I’ve pretty much said what I had to say on my side. We don’t have to keep going back and forth until someone “wins.” If you want to call that me not being able to actually argue any longer, then sure.
I feel like we’ve arrived at the crux of me understanding the deeper seated issue, though, in that you just feel that any candidate who’s okay with capitalism is going to be the enemy, and we have to overthrow the capitalist system completely in order to make real progress. So anything short of that that Biden does is going to make him the enemy to you.
I don’t agree with that viewpoint either, but I don’t really understand the details of what you think on the deeper viewpoint side. So me asking where what you want has been implemented is, one, yes starting to tee up reasons why I might not think it’s realistic or why I might not agree. But, also, I’m genuinely just curious about the details of what you believe. Like if you said China is the model, or Cuba is the model, or it hasn’t really been implemented in the way you’d like to see it but X, Y, and Z are how it would be different this time in the US, then those are very different things which could all go under the heading of “Communist.”
Thank you for being the voice of reason here. The other person has no clue what they’re talking about and have just been hucking out buzz words and talking semantics without substance. Thanks again for being reasonable.
Alright, I’ll answer these, now that you’ve explained plainly what you’re actually looking for and why, rather than beating around the bush.
The United States is Imperialist. By this, I mean Late Stage Capitalist, whereby Capital has been exported to the global south to super-exploit for super-profits. This is a natural end point of Capitalism, Capitalists will seek new markets and manners to increase rates of profit as the overall tendency is toward the fall of the rate of profits. This fall is unavoidable as long as automation improves, so Imperialism is also unavoidable.
This Imperialism inflates living standards within the US by way of unequal exchange, which is the driving cause of fascism itself! As the working class benefits from this unequal exchange, much of the proletariat is turned against itself, rather than against the ruling class. It is in this manner that continuing Capitalism must be opposed.
If I were to vote for a party that best aligns with my interests, I would vote for PSL. However, I also believe that leftist change is impossible in the US via electoral manners as long as Imperialism continues to exist. That is why I am chiefly anti-sectarian. Building up a working class movment is the only way off of this trajectory. Electoralism is impossible because the parties in power must capitulate to the class with power to maintain their own, so the interests of Capitalists will always be supported first and foremost.
As for “the model,” I cannot claim to own the leftist movement. China as it stands now is both better than under the fascist KMT before the PRC, and yet also highly flawed. The same is true of Cuba, far better than under fascist Batista, but can also be better. Historical Materialism looks at history as a result of class conflicts, viewing it in this manner Cuba and China are moving forward, but have far to go as well.
For the US, the number one issue is eliminating Imperialism, as this is the method by which fascism gains hold and the third world brutally exploited. This can be accomplished only via outside worker pressure. If anarchism is leading the movement, then Anarchism I will support! If Marxism is leading the movement, then Marxism I will support! Currently, there is no unifying movement, except against genocide, so I will continue to advocate for solidarity and unity against Capitalism, rather than infighting.
I don’t think capitalism is as tied directly to imperialism as you’re saying here. The USSR was plenty imperial, and they were (nominally at least) Communist. There are also plenty of capitalist countries in the world that don’t have empires.
I think imperialism is mainly a function of power, and how the human beings who tend to gravitate to power and wield it, tend to operate. That can happen with or without capitalism or a US-style governmental system. I actually think, for all the terrible evils of US capitalism, that the US governmental system does a better than average job of reining it in. I think if it were any other country on earth that had the type of money and military power the US does right now, they’d be doing much much worse things than the (already pretty bad) things the US government and corporate system is doing with them.
Again, that’s not to say I disagree with you on reining in capitalism or American empire. On that part we’re fully on the same page, believe it or not. But I think the best way to do that is actually to preserve the US electoral and governmental system and overall position in the world (maybe with some major reforms e.g. on lobbying, media ownership, and the electoral system). I think simply tearing down the American empire is probably going to be a gateway to something much, much worse, because the whole problem all along wasn’t an “America problem,” it was just a general money and power problem that’s worldwide (or universal, as a function of how people and systems of power operate).
I actually think that if your primary goal is undoing American empire, you should be advocating for Trump, because him fucking things up to the point that the US loses its imperial position is a way more realistic way that might happen than anything that’s realistic as an “on purpose” outcome within American politics (electoral or otherwise).
But I also think that the new reality (both inside and outside the US) if that happened would be much, much worse than Biden or Hillary Clinton or Bush 2 or any of these already very bad outcomes we’ve been seeing so far.
Again, just my take on it, based on what you said.
If someone’s mindset is such that it’s unnecessary to talk about what actions a politician has taken when deciding whether to vote for them, I’m comfortable with not being able to appeal to that person.
Honestly my goal isn’t to “get” anyone to do anything. I am trying to communicate the reality I see in front of me. Obviously I hope that that will produce a result and a better outcome in the real world, if the reality I see seems compelling to someone else as a useful model, but I’m not into the idea of trying to move away from “this is how I see it and why” and into something else, to try to engineer a stated result in some other person. They can make their own decisions, as can you.
What are fascist things that Biden has done? How has he moved the needle towards fascism? Maybe this is where some of the disconnect between our views on him comes from.
Removed by mod
That wasn’t the point, though. It’s necessary to look at the actions a politician has taken. The fact that you believe it necessary to “uhmm, akshually” someone who has expressed disapproval of Biden from the left is condescending and counterproductive.
As for the fascist and fasc-adjacent things Biden has done, there are quite a few. Enabling and funding a genocide, labeling protestors as anti-semetic, further entrenching US Imperialism, building Nationalism, and more have resulted in continued cancerous growth of fascists domestically.
In addition to overt actions, it’s important to look at what causes fascism itself. Fascism is Capitalism in decline, a violent assertion of Capital. As the head of state, failing to push back against Capitalism is also failing to push back against it’s decline, and thus is why I say voting for Biden is slow fascism rather than rapid fascism.
The US will inevitably continue down the train of fascism until derailed, which is accomplished via outside pressure. Voting for Biden buys time, but does not prevent fascism.
Forgot about the crime bill and like most of his pre-presidential actions, can’t forget about those
You literally told me that my message listing actions Biden has taken was unnecessary.
Can I do this too? If someone posts a message I disagree with, can I say they’re punching me, and silencing dissent, and "uhmm, askhusally"ing my message, and counterproductive?
Dude. I disagree with you. It’s allowed. Stop trying to imply that it isn’t, and either engage with what I’m saying, or don’t. It seems like you finally are engaging now, so maybe it’s late for me to be saying that, but it’s just irritating me that you’re trying to find so big a variety of words to use to imply that I shouldn’t be allowed to say a viewpoint you don’t agree with.
Quick unrelated question: What’s your feeling on the war in Ukraine?
What would be a good end state, to you? Like what would be a good American system, if you had the perfect politicians in office and could set up the economy and the structure of government exactly as you wanted?
People do not need to hear from you to know what Biden has done. You can discuss individual actions, sure, but you provided a list you believed was good for the purposes of showing why you believe Biden is good.
You can disagree, I just find it condescending that you seem to imply you see things others aren’t.
As for Ukraine, what specifically are you asking? Do you think opposing US imperialism must mean I support Russia, or something? My “feeling” is that war is bad and unjustifiable. Violence is purely justified against oppressors. I believe in Nation’s right to self-determination.
I want Socialism, and eventually, Communism. Worker ownership of the Means of Production. Democracy of, by, and for the Proletariat. Do you have any specific questions? We could be here all day otherwise and I am not sure there would be a point.
Okay, so it’s not punching left or silencing dissent if I disagree? Just want to get that clarified. You can call me condescending, that’s fine; I probably am.
Should the US send weapons to them? Or is that more imperialism? I am just curious; you brought up imperialism, so I’m curious what that means.
I’m just curious about what your viewpoint is. Not sure why that’s a problem when arguing back and forth with hostility wasn’t, but you can stop any time, if you don’t like it.
What’s a country which has implemented the model you’d like to see in the US? Or would this be the US doing it for the first time that it’s been implemented on a big scale in the way you’d like to see it implemented?
My point is that bringing up the stuff Biden has done, without intention to discuss it or any prior relevance to the conversation, is just sealioning.
As for sending US weapons or not, I fail to see how that relates to Imperialism. You’re being extremely dishonest right now, because you don’t actually have any points.
If the people of Ukraine want weapons, then sure. If the people of Ukraine don’t want weapons, then no. Like I said, whatever the people on the ground want, I support.
Sure, countries have had similar structures. None have been exactly what I want, so I’m not sure why giving an example is important or relevant. Every country is going to have a unique path to Socialism and then Communism.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
I’m not into the idea of just “yes it is” “no it isn’t” 'yes it is" “no it isn’t.” It’s a waste of time. I feel like I understand your viewpoint on Biden at this point, and I’ve pretty much said what I had to say on my side. We don’t have to keep going back and forth until someone “wins.” If you want to call that me not being able to actually argue any longer, then sure.
I feel like we’ve arrived at the crux of me understanding the deeper seated issue, though, in that you just feel that any candidate who’s okay with capitalism is going to be the enemy, and we have to overthrow the capitalist system completely in order to make real progress. So anything short of that that Biden does is going to make him the enemy to you.
I don’t agree with that viewpoint either, but I don’t really understand the details of what you think on the deeper viewpoint side. So me asking where what you want has been implemented is, one, yes starting to tee up reasons why I might not think it’s realistic or why I might not agree. But, also, I’m genuinely just curious about the details of what you believe. Like if you said China is the model, or Cuba is the model, or it hasn’t really been implemented in the way you’d like to see it but X, Y, and Z are how it would be different this time in the US, then those are very different things which could all go under the heading of “Communist.”
Thank you for being the voice of reason here. The other person has no clue what they’re talking about and have just been hucking out buzz words and talking semantics without substance. Thanks again for being reasonable.
Alright, I’ll answer these, now that you’ve explained plainly what you’re actually looking for and why, rather than beating around the bush.
The United States is Imperialist. By this, I mean Late Stage Capitalist, whereby Capital has been exported to the global south to super-exploit for super-profits. This is a natural end point of Capitalism, Capitalists will seek new markets and manners to increase rates of profit as the overall tendency is toward the fall of the rate of profits. This fall is unavoidable as long as automation improves, so Imperialism is also unavoidable.
This Imperialism inflates living standards within the US by way of unequal exchange, which is the driving cause of fascism itself! As the working class benefits from this unequal exchange, much of the proletariat is turned against itself, rather than against the ruling class. It is in this manner that continuing Capitalism must be opposed.
If I were to vote for a party that best aligns with my interests, I would vote for PSL. However, I also believe that leftist change is impossible in the US via electoral manners as long as Imperialism continues to exist. That is why I am chiefly anti-sectarian. Building up a working class movment is the only way off of this trajectory. Electoralism is impossible because the parties in power must capitulate to the class with power to maintain their own, so the interests of Capitalists will always be supported first and foremost.
As for “the model,” I cannot claim to own the leftist movement. China as it stands now is both better than under the fascist KMT before the PRC, and yet also highly flawed. The same is true of Cuba, far better than under fascist Batista, but can also be better. Historical Materialism looks at history as a result of class conflicts, viewing it in this manner Cuba and China are moving forward, but have far to go as well.
For the US, the number one issue is eliminating Imperialism, as this is the method by which fascism gains hold and the third world brutally exploited. This can be accomplished only via outside worker pressure. If anarchism is leading the movement, then Anarchism I will support! If Marxism is leading the movement, then Marxism I will support! Currently, there is no unifying movement, except against genocide, so I will continue to advocate for solidarity and unity against Capitalism, rather than infighting.
This is just my uneducated viewpoint on it:
I don’t think capitalism is as tied directly to imperialism as you’re saying here. The USSR was plenty imperial, and they were (nominally at least) Communist. There are also plenty of capitalist countries in the world that don’t have empires.
I think imperialism is mainly a function of power, and how the human beings who tend to gravitate to power and wield it, tend to operate. That can happen with or without capitalism or a US-style governmental system. I actually think, for all the terrible evils of US capitalism, that the US governmental system does a better than average job of reining it in. I think if it were any other country on earth that had the type of money and military power the US does right now, they’d be doing much much worse things than the (already pretty bad) things the US government and corporate system is doing with them.
Again, that’s not to say I disagree with you on reining in capitalism or American empire. On that part we’re fully on the same page, believe it or not. But I think the best way to do that is actually to preserve the US electoral and governmental system and overall position in the world (maybe with some major reforms e.g. on lobbying, media ownership, and the electoral system). I think simply tearing down the American empire is probably going to be a gateway to something much, much worse, because the whole problem all along wasn’t an “America problem,” it was just a general money and power problem that’s worldwide (or universal, as a function of how people and systems of power operate).
I actually think that if your primary goal is undoing American empire, you should be advocating for Trump, because him fucking things up to the point that the US loses its imperial position is a way more realistic way that might happen than anything that’s realistic as an “on purpose” outcome within American politics (electoral or otherwise).
But I also think that the new reality (both inside and outside the US) if that happened would be much, much worse than Biden or Hillary Clinton or Bush 2 or any of these already very bad outcomes we’ve been seeing so far.
Again, just my take on it, based on what you said.