“I need my window repaired but I don’t know how to do it”
“I can repair windows but I need someone to help my sick dog”
“I can diagnose animals but I need someone to translate Spanish”.
"I can translate Spanish but I need someone to deliver this package "
They’re not going to all line up and do a series of trades. Someone’s going to be like "what if I give you a token, and we all agree that token is worth work? Then you can take that token to anyone*
Nobody is advocating for keeping the current system and simply removing the concept of money. Money is of course a necessity of the current system, but need not be if the system itself is changed.
The person I replied to literally said “the rest by bartering or agreement”. I guess you could stir money is an agreement but that’s not what I took from their message
Also how are you going to solve the scenario I provided?
I don’t understand how that’s going to solve the scenario I described.
There’s stuff I can do but don’t want to. There’s stuff I would do in exchange for something. But once that “something” isn’t what you have, the reasons for currency become apparent.
We do, but it requires a good deal of manual labour. Which isn’t something people will just do for fun. Even someone who enjoys sowing isn’t going to want to spend all day in a factory making t-shirts, for example.
I don’t like taking out the trash and my partner doesn’t like doing the dishes but we both do them happily because we understand when we contribute to the household we both benefit in vastly greater measure than our individual efforts.
Looks like you have a much more optimistic view of humans than I do. Because I don’t think that “it’s necessary” would be enough motivation for most people to do things that they fundamentally dislike doing without having an immediately tangible benefit.
Whenever you have anything you don’t need for survival, give it to someone who can use it to survive. You can’t force anyone else to do this, but if enough of us do it, then we we will live in the Utopia described. If we dont do this, then we are actively fighting against this Utopia. I’m afraid we will not be able to continue this conversation, however, because we do not need these phones to survive.
Yeah I thought we might be having a conversation, but your last comment did in fact clarify that you’re being disingenuous, so I agree we not be able to continue.
Disingenuous, how? I absolutely agree that philosophically, it would be nice to work for the good of everyone else. It doesn’t make me actually want to live my own personal life in that way. I am human, and I have some selfish tendencies. I have no problem admitting that.
What about if you make flower necklaces and you want a remote-controlled truck, but the person making trucks doesn’t want necklaces? Should you need to go ask all the people making truck parts if they want to trade with you so that you can trade with the truck maker? What if you can’t find anyone who wants to trade with you who also has things that the truck maker wants?
People used to barter long ago, that gradually shifted into everyone bartering for a specific type of seashell. Seashells are the most used “currency” in history. They were really great as a currency because you could measure them individually, or weigh lots of them for bigger trades. Some people stuck with the old bartering system without using seashells, but they didn’t get the stuff they wanted nearly as easily. Eventually, some people switched from seashells to other things that worked even better for them, gold being a very popular one. Alchohol was one for a long time as well. Even muslims that wouldn’t drink it still used it as currency. The advent of strong liquors was incredible because it allowed for easier transport of large quantities of wealth when compared to beer or cider.
One of the most surprising currencies was massive carved donut shaped rocks. They were not divisible, but they were extremely hard to steal since they were so heavy.
I’ve seen a few episodes of Star Trek long ago, back when it was on TV. Did they have a successful barter system?
You seem to think the flower crown maker is making them for profit. You’re stuck in the capitalist mentality. We shouldn’t be defined by what we do and we shouldn’t only do that which is for monetary gain. I don’t want somebody needlessly making an endless supply of flower crowns, I want a person free to make flower crowns only when they want to for pleasure.
Absolutely. I would love for them to be free to make them as well without any worry about survival. I just don’t think that anyone should be able to go to them and demand that they have to give them their flower crowns that they just spent all weekend making. They have friends that they want to give these flower crowns to in exchange for other cute accessories.
Also, I think that if someone spends 3 months making an RC truck, then the flower maker should not be allowed to demand they give them a truck simply because they make flowers crowns that the truck maker doesnt want. The truck maker wants to give this truck to the drone maker who is going to give him a drone.
I agree. In this hypothetical world without currency, people don’t get to have as many things that they want. In a world with currency, they get more of the things they want. Human nature for nearly everyone is that they keep wanting more and more things. That’s why most people choose to live with currency instead of living without it.
The truck maker spent many years learning how to make trucks, and even still, it is very exhausting and time-consuming. They can’t make very many. Because of this, there are not enough trucks for everyone who wants them. The truck maker likes rare and difficult-to-make things, so they prefer to give their trucks to other people who are willing and able to give them rare and difficult-to-make things.
Honestly, the flower necklaces are kind of sweet. The truck maker can tell that the flower maker tried to put a little smiley face on them, but they fall apart very easily, and any child can make dozens of them in an afternoon.
Then the flower crown maker doesn’t get to have a truck, but that’s okay because all of their needs are still being met. Utopia doesn’t mean everyone having everything they want all the time, it just means having everything they need
In a world with a currency system, the flower maker is free to make flowers as much as they want and has the ability to exchange them for trucks through a medium of exchange.
In a world with no currency, the flower maker has to live without a truck.
Our ancestors were faced with the decision of which world they wanted to live in. Most chose the first option. Some chose the second.
Even today, there are people who are still largely choosing the second. They live their lives going from one Rainbow Gathering to another, everyone shares the necessities freely, there is no currency, and there are barter markets. This is a life that anyone, no matter how broke they are, can choose(at least in the US and many other 1st world countries). It is a beautiful place to be, and they happen year round. I highly recommend it to anyone to try, whether or not they think they would like this kind of life. Especially anyone who genuinely longs for a life without currency should absolutely go try it. It is a life-changing experience, almost guaranteed.
Basic needs and resources should be provided, the rest by bartering or agreement, yes.
Have you seen Star Trek?
Money would like immediately be reinvented.
“I need my window repaired but I don’t know how to do it”
“I can repair windows but I need someone to help my sick dog”
“I can diagnose animals but I need someone to translate Spanish”.
"I can translate Spanish but I need someone to deliver this package "
They’re not going to all line up and do a series of trades. Someone’s going to be like "what if I give you a token, and we all agree that token is worth work? Then you can take that token to anyone*
Nobody is advocating for keeping the current system and simply removing the concept of money. Money is of course a necessity of the current system, but need not be if the system itself is changed.
The person I replied to literally said “the rest by bartering or agreement”. I guess you could stir money is an agreement but that’s not what I took from their message
Also how are you going to solve the scenario I provided?
Collective ownership of Capital. You don’t need money in every system.
I don’t understand how that’s going to solve the scenario I described.
There’s stuff I can do but don’t want to. There’s stuff I would do in exchange for something. But once that “something” isn’t what you have, the reasons for currency become apparent.
In Capitalism, sure. In Socialism, no.
I’m not trying to be obtuse but I’m not following.
In the example I gave, is the guy going to repair the window out of the goodness of his heart?
No, they will do it because it’s their job, and they work a certain number of hours per week.
Money is a unit of measurement. This is as insane as talking about removing the concept of length.
No, money is a commodity used to exchange commodities. You can have a functional society without relying on markets.
Star Trek has replicators.
It does, but we have the means to provide the basic needs for everyone already, no replicators required.
We do, but it requires a good deal of manual labour. Which isn’t something people will just do for fun. Even someone who enjoys sowing isn’t going to want to spend all day in a factory making t-shirts, for example.
I don’t like taking out the trash and my partner doesn’t like doing the dishes but we both do them happily because we understand when we contribute to the household we both benefit in vastly greater measure than our individual efforts.
Looks like you have a much more optimistic view of humans than I do. Because I don’t think that “it’s necessary” would be enough motivation for most people to do things that they fundamentally dislike doing without having an immediately tangible benefit.
Whenever you have anything you don’t need for survival, give it to someone who can use it to survive. You can’t force anyone else to do this, but if enough of us do it, then we we will live in the Utopia described. If we dont do this, then we are actively fighting against this Utopia. I’m afraid we will not be able to continue this conversation, however, because we do not need these phones to survive.
Yeah I thought we might be having a conversation, but your last comment did in fact clarify that you’re being disingenuous, so I agree we not be able to continue.
Disingenuous, how? I absolutely agree that philosophically, it would be nice to work for the good of everyone else. It doesn’t make me actually want to live my own personal life in that way. I am human, and I have some selfish tendencies. I have no problem admitting that.
Bro you literally did the “yet you have a phone!” meme
What about if you make flower necklaces and you want a remote-controlled truck, but the person making trucks doesn’t want necklaces? Should you need to go ask all the people making truck parts if they want to trade with you so that you can trade with the truck maker? What if you can’t find anyone who wants to trade with you who also has things that the truck maker wants?
People used to barter long ago, that gradually shifted into everyone bartering for a specific type of seashell. Seashells are the most used “currency” in history. They were really great as a currency because you could measure them individually, or weigh lots of them for bigger trades. Some people stuck with the old bartering system without using seashells, but they didn’t get the stuff they wanted nearly as easily. Eventually, some people switched from seashells to other things that worked even better for them, gold being a very popular one. Alchohol was one for a long time as well. Even muslims that wouldn’t drink it still used it as currency. The advent of strong liquors was incredible because it allowed for easier transport of large quantities of wealth when compared to beer or cider.
One of the most surprising currencies was massive carved donut shaped rocks. They were not divisible, but they were extremely hard to steal since they were so heavy.
I’ve seen a few episodes of Star Trek long ago, back when it was on TV. Did they have a successful barter system?
You seem to think the flower crown maker is making them for profit. You’re stuck in the capitalist mentality. We shouldn’t be defined by what we do and we shouldn’t only do that which is for monetary gain. I don’t want somebody needlessly making an endless supply of flower crowns, I want a person free to make flower crowns only when they want to for pleasure.
Absolutely. I would love for them to be free to make them as well without any worry about survival. I just don’t think that anyone should be able to go to them and demand that they have to give them their flower crowns that they just spent all weekend making. They have friends that they want to give these flower crowns to in exchange for other cute accessories.
Also, I think that if someone spends 3 months making an RC truck, then the flower maker should not be allowed to demand they give them a truck simply because they make flowers crowns that the truck maker doesnt want. The truck maker wants to give this truck to the drone maker who is going to give him a drone.
What have I said that implies they would get to demand anything? Where I have I said everyone gets to have everything they want?
I agree. In this hypothetical world without currency, people don’t get to have as many things that they want. In a world with currency, they get more of the things they want. Human nature for nearly everyone is that they keep wanting more and more things. That’s why most people choose to live with currency instead of living without it.
Why does the truck maker need anything? Why can’t he just give the truck for free if his basic needs and resource requirements are being met?
The truck maker spent many years learning how to make trucks, and even still, it is very exhausting and time-consuming. They can’t make very many. Because of this, there are not enough trucks for everyone who wants them. The truck maker likes rare and difficult-to-make things, so they prefer to give their trucks to other people who are willing and able to give them rare and difficult-to-make things.
Honestly, the flower necklaces are kind of sweet. The truck maker can tell that the flower maker tried to put a little smiley face on them, but they fall apart very easily, and any child can make dozens of them in an afternoon.
Then the flower crown maker doesn’t get to have a truck, but that’s okay because all of their needs are still being met. Utopia doesn’t mean everyone having everything they want all the time, it just means having everything they need
In a world with a currency system, the flower maker is free to make flowers as much as they want and has the ability to exchange them for trucks through a medium of exchange.
In a world with no currency, the flower maker has to live without a truck.
Our ancestors were faced with the decision of which world they wanted to live in. Most chose the first option. Some chose the second.
Even today, there are people who are still largely choosing the second. They live their lives going from one Rainbow Gathering to another, everyone shares the necessities freely, there is no currency, and there are barter markets. This is a life that anyone, no matter how broke they are, can choose(at least in the US and many other 1st world countries). It is a beautiful place to be, and they happen year round. I highly recommend it to anyone to try, whether or not they think they would like this kind of life. Especially anyone who genuinely longs for a life without currency should absolutely go try it. It is a life-changing experience, almost guaranteed.