Let me ask you this. Would it be appropriate to have a “Black Person Storytime”?
Kids like firefighters because it’s a hero job. They see the cool suit and know enough about the job to make it seem really neat and firefighters love a bit of admiration to offset some of the horrible stuff they see. The thing that unites firefighters and Drag Queens is that they are both things you do not things that you are. End of the day those are things that you roles take off and put away. You have on hours and off. But the thing about being trans, just like being black, it’s not something that you walk stop being when you don’t feel like dealing with it. Identities aren’t performed for someone else’s benefit and it is generally rude to ask that of someone because it is a very othering experience to have that levied at you. So some things are not appropriate to ask people because doing so implies that you do not respect their identity and only want to use their lives experience to further your own or others self improvement and ego .
You seem to have a hangup about authenticity here so I would like to ask another question of you. What if the point is not always to teach a lesson? What if your conception of a library’s mission statement isn’t on point?
Think about Sesame Street. What do muppets have to do with learning numeracy? My sibling is a librarian here in Canada and they will do anything to get kids in the door. They have a repitoire of childrens songs they learn and perform to engage babies. They use puppets and feltboards and dance in addition to reading. They host first Nations dancers and model train enthusiasts and did a teenage program where they looted a bunch of rejected stuffed animals from second hand shops and let the teens rip them apart and sew them up into insane shapes… Because it is a function of the library to engage people with fun things that get them interested in new skills and hobbies and connect with their neighbors and other cultural groups. They do birdwatching kits and ukulele programs and make marshmallow catapults. They do Lunar new years celebrations and dwali and Easter programs. You as an adult at any point can go and book a room for your special interest group (provided no safety or damage concerns) even if it is against the librarians wishes because that is a community service and is servicing other communities. They want people to know are a service you can go to perpetuate culture, get help with social safety nets and engage your mind beyond simply being a dry educational environment.
Libraries represent a public investment in culture, perspective and community. Education is only one of their many aims. So why does a Drag queen need to be an activist? They are reading to an engaged group of children and performing a pre vetted child friendly version of a cultural art that exists as entirely unique to their country. Even if the kids just liked the bearded sparkly princess and sat down and socialized with other children and were read a book there is value to giving a child a fun day at a library where they were given an opportunity to connect with people they might not have otherwise and maybe be inspired to read a little and learn about another cultural practice in a way that is fun. Fun fosters curiosity and passion to do self directed learning. Kids don’t need to be preached inclusion to like adults. If you treat something as fun and normal they learn the lesson on their own.
program where they looted a bunch of rejected stuffed animals from second hand shops and let the teens rip them apart and sew them up into insane shapes…
Oh hells yeah. Teens are kind of difficult to engage for libraries but they ended up maxing out the program. A lot of the kids didn’t even know how to thread a needle but they ended up just proud of the weird shit they came up with.
Kind of epic aftermath as well. A quarter of the library was coated in frankenstuffie fluff.
Exactly, drag is a thing people do for personal expression in queer culture (unlike being a different race), but just because it’s related to queer culture doesn’t automatically make a drag queen okay to present at a story hour unless they’ve also done something else. So it’s like goth story hour. Or Juggalo story hour. Also, firefighting requires skill and training. Literally anyone can go do drag.
You seem to have missed my point. Libraries are a cultural trust. Anyone can perform a play but there’s a big difference between someone who does it professionally versus someone who performed it on an amatur basis. Drag is not just a fashion subculture… It’s a legitimate performance art. It might not be the sort one makes a living from on it’s own but there are people who actually fly across the country to perform in other cities … and there is such thing as bad drag.
What puzzles me is you seem very keen on devaluing Drag particularly? How is it different than say other cultural presentations like lion dancing or Rakugo story telling or traditional clowning? What makes it not culturally valuable and yet those other things acceptable?
Did you know that the Santa Claus at your library is a professional Santa? Anyone can wear the costume sure… but they specifically pick people who have reputable backgrounds as performers because you are dealing with a vulnerable population you have to make sure you are picking someone who has skin in the game . You could have a Goth performer if they were willing to find a way to make it more accessible as it is primarily a music forward subculture that is likely to go over the heads of the kids… But if they were like a goth comedian or magician or something there would probably be something to get a kick out of. I don’t know about Juggolos because that’s a pretty limited sub culture and might not translate to child friendly well… But showing that these people aren’t actually scary they just like to look scary and are real people under the facade has it’s own potential for kids to get some benefit from it. You wouldn’t want to just grab a random goth off the street and hand them a book, you want someone with a reputation because losing a reputation is something of a guarantee of good behaviour. Also… First time library drag queens go through a vetting process. They are assessed by people with at minimum a Masters degree who go over the set to make sure it’s in keeping with the library’s mission and certain performers get reputations for excellence between the community of library branches.
Also straight up. Kids love the Queens.
Also - the majority of the benefits of these things don’t come from the direct interactions between the performer and the kids but between kids and their parents. The take away is usually a demonstration to kids that their parents are accepting of some forms of non-conformity. A lot of the reason Drag as an art exists is because queer people created sanctuary communities after facing rejection from their families and created a form of comedy unique to queer culture to heal from those traumas. It’s why drag lineages have “mothers” and “daughters” or “brothers”. It’s a reclamation of family. Queer communities would carve out physical spaces to accept people who were refugees from their original communities. When kids see how their parents react to a drag queen they know much better than if they are simply told that they are safe to be weird. That their parents will still love them even if they like dresses or are flamboyant. That’s often at the core of what motivates a lot of drag queens to do story hour… Because being a library drag queen is dangerous. Those who do it don’t take it lightly and believe in what they are doing. A lot of them do so because they might not have had that acceptance from their parents or lived in fear of discovery growing up or they know someone who was rejected. You do not become a deag queen by being faint of heart. You have to be willing to brave some lunatics who actually want to hurt you . Even where I am in one of the most queer accepting places in the world it’s policy for library staff to walk drag queens to their cars to keep them safe. You don’t do that unless you believe in what you do.
Once you’ve seen a legit queen perform for kids you will get it. That polish and confidence isn’t something you get without experience.
What puzzles me is you seem very keen on devaluing Drag particularly? How is it different than say other cultural presentations like lion dancing or Rakugo story telling or traditional clowning? What makes it not culturally valuable and yet those other things acceptable?
Because it’s something anyone can get up and do one day. There’s no barrier to entry. The rest of the things you described require training and skill development. Even clowns have schools, but perhaps it’s the same as goth or Juggalo or drag.
I dont care if an architect who is also a drag queen does a reading hour, that would be awesome actually. So please stop straw manning me. I don’t hate drag queens, I hate leftists who try to legitimize sustaining one’s dignity and respect as a person on the empathy and kindness of others.
Also, just because someone belongs to queer culture (or any minority or embattled culture) does not automatically give that person some status such that we need to listen to or pay attention to that person
Edit to explain what I meant by kindness remark (bc apparently have to break down simple ideas lest they’re misconstrued): no, I am not saying don’t be kind or empathetic. I am saying a culture that teaches its members to expect that to sustain itself is in for a world of hurt because the whole world is not composed of just your members
You believe there is no barrier to entry? I invite you to go try it. Not just walking around in make up and a wig and bouncing around in front of your friends mind you. Go in front of an audience that payed a cover and entertain them for half an hour. Charm a room full of patrons who showed up with expectations. Deal with hecklers and queerphobia in a way that makes an audience laugh.
What you seem to require to recognize the value of a performer is being legitimized by a school that is validated by historical structures that determine art. Queer culture is generally not legitimized outside our own internal structures. We were frozen out of legitimacy and devalued by those structures. We had to create our own and because of criminalization our culture was atomized and localized. There is no acreditiation process for drag queens yes…Think for a minute why that is. I realize you are not intending to be discriminatory or cruel but regardless you are upholding a culture of discrimination that refuses to treat these historical arts as being valid unless someone in your wider dominant heterosexual culture rubber stamps it in a ritual of wide cultural accreditation. As a community that has been constantly under political fire and faced routine attempts at exterminaton for centuries yeah you can’t go to a university for a drag queen program. That doesn’t mean that you’re going to be instantly accepted as a queen if you tried to take a spot.
But moreover hackles down. You want to believe that I am condemning your soul as being evil that isn’t the case. You are ignorant. That is okay. There isn’t shame in being ignorant but if you dig in your heels and feel attacked because you are being challenged you will make this all about soothing your need to feel like you are a good person…and you can be a good person and still be doing harm by perpetuating something unthinkingly. This isn’t about you being a good person, it’s about the idea you are hauling along with you that holds a seed of subjugation of a community you do not understand.
You believe there is no barrier to entry? I invite you to go try it. Not just walking around in make up and a wig and bouncing around in front of your friends mind you. Go in front of an audience that payed a cover and entertain them for half an hour. Charm a room full of patrons who showed up with expectations. Deal with hecklers and queerphobia in a way that makes an audience laugh.
I am sorry but what? None of the things you described involve any distinct skill or talent, like for example clowns doing juggling. Going in front of people to present and having to deal with bad reactions is not distinct to drag as a hobby, expression or job. Any job may necessarily have that as a component to some degree.
Look I get it, drag is personal expression that’s part of queer culture and queer culture has been condemned and embattled forever.
But I don’t think anyone who doesn’t find value or skill in drag is being ignorant (which by the way is crutch you’re using because that’s easier than accepting that I may have a point).
We don’t have to automatically give respect to someone’s cultural thing. Like someone may wear Burqas or get facial tattoos or do drag or make their babies get circumcised.
None of things are above criticism or being challenged just because they’re from a non-dominant culture. Non-dominant cultures are still composed of people who have the same bad ideas and ills as those in dominant cultures. I don’t care if people do drag, I don’t care if a skilled and talented person does drag story hour. I support queer culture (I am part of it), but queer culture is not a religion and it is not above criticism or right about everything all the time.
Edit also things like art and music do have a barrier to entry, basically talent. Drag doesn’t not require skill or talent, same as being goth or Juggalo doesn’t
Edit2:
Art and art forms are never above critical analysis, and if they are it’s just dogma. It’s okay if drag is queer culture dogma, like wearing a burqa is for someone else’s culture.
But reframing drag as a cultural expression and as a way to resolve psychological incongruities to act out personas (expression as therapy) helps motivate drag story hour by full time drag queens.
People do other things as part of their tribal membership (like Christmas trees) which just have cultural significance and nothing more, so drag is okay itself too and doesn’t need any more hardening than being a part of queer culture. I appreciate the poster who mentioned Stonewall to me, that was a good reminder.
Thankfully our library system has more respect for the craft and the authenticity of cultural practice they choose to present to patrons. There is more here to unpack than I personally care to engage with.
Um… none of the things they listed have barriers to entry. You can take classes for them, and for something athletic like Lion Dancing it’s recommended to at least have some gymnastics training so you don’t get hurt, but you aren’t required to in order to perform.
Same with things like painting or playing instruments. Do you think Yo Yo Ma has a license to play his cello or something? Or Van Gogh had a painter’s license? He didn’t even have much formal training, for heaven’s sake. Do you also think their works are ‘low skill’? Would you object to Yo Yo Ma reading to kids?
Pretty much all art has no barrier to entry. What matters is how hard you work at it and how skilled you can become. And drag, as a performance art, is work.
Anyways, where did you get this weird idea that only things with a proper ‘barrier to entry’ (which, historically, has been expensive schooling that denies minorities proper access, btw—see what’s going on with PoC and trying to work exclusively with braiding textured hair, for example) is the only way to judge quality or worth? Why can’t art especially be judged on its own merits?
…And, um, did I read that right? You don’t like it when people empathize with others? Or are kind to others?
Let me ask you this. Would it be appropriate to have a “Black Person Storytime”?
Kids like firefighters because it’s a hero job. They see the cool suit and know enough about the job to make it seem really neat and firefighters love a bit of admiration to offset some of the horrible stuff they see. The thing that unites firefighters and Drag Queens is that they are both things you do not things that you are. End of the day those are things that you roles take off and put away. You have on hours and off. But the thing about being trans, just like being black, it’s not something that you walk stop being when you don’t feel like dealing with it. Identities aren’t performed for someone else’s benefit and it is generally rude to ask that of someone because it is a very othering experience to have that levied at you. So some things are not appropriate to ask people because doing so implies that you do not respect their identity and only want to use their lives experience to further your own or others self improvement and ego .
You seem to have a hangup about authenticity here so I would like to ask another question of you. What if the point is not always to teach a lesson? What if your conception of a library’s mission statement isn’t on point?
Think about Sesame Street. What do muppets have to do with learning numeracy? My sibling is a librarian here in Canada and they will do anything to get kids in the door. They have a repitoire of childrens songs they learn and perform to engage babies. They use puppets and feltboards and dance in addition to reading. They host first Nations dancers and model train enthusiasts and did a teenage program where they looted a bunch of rejected stuffed animals from second hand shops and let the teens rip them apart and sew them up into insane shapes… Because it is a function of the library to engage people with fun things that get them interested in new skills and hobbies and connect with their neighbors and other cultural groups. They do birdwatching kits and ukulele programs and make marshmallow catapults. They do Lunar new years celebrations and dwali and Easter programs. You as an adult at any point can go and book a room for your special interest group (provided no safety or damage concerns) even if it is against the librarians wishes because that is a community service and is servicing other communities. They want people to know are a service you can go to perpetuate culture, get help with social safety nets and engage your mind beyond simply being a dry educational environment.
Libraries represent a public investment in culture, perspective and community. Education is only one of their many aims. So why does a Drag queen need to be an activist? They are reading to an engaged group of children and performing a pre vetted child friendly version of a cultural art that exists as entirely unique to their country. Even if the kids just liked the bearded sparkly princess and sat down and socialized with other children and were read a book there is value to giving a child a fun day at a library where they were given an opportunity to connect with people they might not have otherwise and maybe be inspired to read a little and learn about another cultural practice in a way that is fun. Fun fosters curiosity and passion to do self directed learning. Kids don’t need to be preached inclusion to like adults. If you treat something as fun and normal they learn the lesson on their own.
That is fucking awesome
Oh hells yeah. Teens are kind of difficult to engage for libraries but they ended up maxing out the program. A lot of the kids didn’t even know how to thread a needle but they ended up just proud of the weird shit they came up with.
Kind of epic aftermath as well. A quarter of the library was coated in frankenstuffie fluff.
Exactly, drag is a thing people do for personal expression in queer culture (unlike being a different race), but just because it’s related to queer culture doesn’t automatically make a drag queen okay to present at a story hour unless they’ve also done something else. So it’s like goth story hour. Or Juggalo story hour. Also, firefighting requires skill and training. Literally anyone can go do drag.
You seem to have missed my point. Libraries are a cultural trust. Anyone can perform a play but there’s a big difference between someone who does it professionally versus someone who performed it on an amatur basis. Drag is not just a fashion subculture… It’s a legitimate performance art. It might not be the sort one makes a living from on it’s own but there are people who actually fly across the country to perform in other cities … and there is such thing as bad drag.
What puzzles me is you seem very keen on devaluing Drag particularly? How is it different than say other cultural presentations like lion dancing or Rakugo story telling or traditional clowning? What makes it not culturally valuable and yet those other things acceptable?
Did you know that the Santa Claus at your library is a professional Santa? Anyone can wear the costume sure… but they specifically pick people who have reputable backgrounds as performers because you are dealing with a vulnerable population you have to make sure you are picking someone who has skin in the game . You could have a Goth performer if they were willing to find a way to make it more accessible as it is primarily a music forward subculture that is likely to go over the heads of the kids… But if they were like a goth comedian or magician or something there would probably be something to get a kick out of. I don’t know about Juggolos because that’s a pretty limited sub culture and might not translate to child friendly well… But showing that these people aren’t actually scary they just like to look scary and are real people under the facade has it’s own potential for kids to get some benefit from it. You wouldn’t want to just grab a random goth off the street and hand them a book, you want someone with a reputation because losing a reputation is something of a guarantee of good behaviour. Also… First time library drag queens go through a vetting process. They are assessed by people with at minimum a Masters degree who go over the set to make sure it’s in keeping with the library’s mission and certain performers get reputations for excellence between the community of library branches.
Also straight up. Kids love the Queens.
Also - the majority of the benefits of these things don’t come from the direct interactions between the performer and the kids but between kids and their parents. The take away is usually a demonstration to kids that their parents are accepting of some forms of non-conformity. A lot of the reason Drag as an art exists is because queer people created sanctuary communities after facing rejection from their families and created a form of comedy unique to queer culture to heal from those traumas. It’s why drag lineages have “mothers” and “daughters” or “brothers”. It’s a reclamation of family. Queer communities would carve out physical spaces to accept people who were refugees from their original communities. When kids see how their parents react to a drag queen they know much better than if they are simply told that they are safe to be weird. That their parents will still love them even if they like dresses or are flamboyant. That’s often at the core of what motivates a lot of drag queens to do story hour… Because being a library drag queen is dangerous. Those who do it don’t take it lightly and believe in what they are doing. A lot of them do so because they might not have had that acceptance from their parents or lived in fear of discovery growing up or they know someone who was rejected. You do not become a deag queen by being faint of heart. You have to be willing to brave some lunatics who actually want to hurt you . Even where I am in one of the most queer accepting places in the world it’s policy for library staff to walk drag queens to their cars to keep them safe. You don’t do that unless you believe in what you do.
Once you’ve seen a legit queen perform for kids you will get it. That polish and confidence isn’t something you get without experience.
Because it’s something anyone can get up and do one day. There’s no barrier to entry. The rest of the things you described require training and skill development. Even clowns have schools, but perhaps it’s the same as goth or Juggalo or drag.
I dont care if an architect who is also a drag queen does a reading hour, that would be awesome actually. So please stop straw manning me. I don’t hate drag queens, I hate leftists who try to legitimize sustaining one’s dignity and respect as a person on the empathy and kindness of others.
Also, just because someone belongs to queer culture (or any minority or embattled culture) does not automatically give that person some status such that we need to listen to or pay attention to that person
Edit to explain what I meant by kindness remark (bc apparently have to break down simple ideas lest they’re misconstrued): no, I am not saying don’t be kind or empathetic. I am saying a culture that teaches its members to expect that to sustain itself is in for a world of hurt because the whole world is not composed of just your members
You believe there is no barrier to entry? I invite you to go try it. Not just walking around in make up and a wig and bouncing around in front of your friends mind you. Go in front of an audience that payed a cover and entertain them for half an hour. Charm a room full of patrons who showed up with expectations. Deal with hecklers and queerphobia in a way that makes an audience laugh.
What you seem to require to recognize the value of a performer is being legitimized by a school that is validated by historical structures that determine art. Queer culture is generally not legitimized outside our own internal structures. We were frozen out of legitimacy and devalued by those structures. We had to create our own and because of criminalization our culture was atomized and localized. There is no acreditiation process for drag queens yes…Think for a minute why that is. I realize you are not intending to be discriminatory or cruel but regardless you are upholding a culture of discrimination that refuses to treat these historical arts as being valid unless someone in your wider dominant heterosexual culture rubber stamps it in a ritual of wide cultural accreditation. As a community that has been constantly under political fire and faced routine attempts at exterminaton for centuries yeah you can’t go to a university for a drag queen program. That doesn’t mean that you’re going to be instantly accepted as a queen if you tried to take a spot.
But moreover hackles down. You want to believe that I am condemning your soul as being evil that isn’t the case. You are ignorant. That is okay. There isn’t shame in being ignorant but if you dig in your heels and feel attacked because you are being challenged you will make this all about soothing your need to feel like you are a good person…and you can be a good person and still be doing harm by perpetuating something unthinkingly. This isn’t about you being a good person, it’s about the idea you are hauling along with you that holds a seed of subjugation of a community you do not understand.
I am sorry but what? None of the things you described involve any distinct skill or talent, like for example clowns doing juggling. Going in front of people to present and having to deal with bad reactions is not distinct to drag as a hobby, expression or job. Any job may necessarily have that as a component to some degree.
Look I get it, drag is personal expression that’s part of queer culture and queer culture has been condemned and embattled forever.
But I don’t think anyone who doesn’t find value or skill in drag is being ignorant (which by the way is crutch you’re using because that’s easier than accepting that I may have a point).
We don’t have to automatically give respect to someone’s cultural thing. Like someone may wear Burqas or get facial tattoos or do drag or make their babies get circumcised.
None of things are above criticism or being challenged just because they’re from a non-dominant culture. Non-dominant cultures are still composed of people who have the same bad ideas and ills as those in dominant cultures. I don’t care if people do drag, I don’t care if a skilled and talented person does drag story hour. I support queer culture (I am part of it), but queer culture is not a religion and it is not above criticism or right about everything all the time.
Edit also things like art and music do have a barrier to entry, basically talent. Drag doesn’t not require skill or talent, same as being goth or Juggalo doesn’t
Edit2:
Art and art forms are never above critical analysis, and if they are it’s just dogma. It’s okay if drag is queer culture dogma, like wearing a burqa is for someone else’s culture.
But reframing drag as a cultural expression and as a way to resolve psychological incongruities to act out personas (expression as therapy) helps motivate drag story hour by full time drag queens.
People do other things as part of their tribal membership (like Christmas trees) which just have cultural significance and nothing more, so drag is okay itself too and doesn’t need any more hardening than being a part of queer culture. I appreciate the poster who mentioned Stonewall to me, that was a good reminder.
Thankfully our library system has more respect for the craft and the authenticity of cultural practice they choose to present to patrons. There is more here to unpack than I personally care to engage with.
Um… none of the things they listed have barriers to entry. You can take classes for them, and for something athletic like Lion Dancing it’s recommended to at least have some gymnastics training so you don’t get hurt, but you aren’t required to in order to perform.
Same with things like painting or playing instruments. Do you think Yo Yo Ma has a license to play his cello or something? Or Van Gogh had a painter’s license? He didn’t even have much formal training, for heaven’s sake. Do you also think their works are ‘low skill’? Would you object to Yo Yo Ma reading to kids?
Pretty much all art has no barrier to entry. What matters is how hard you work at it and how skilled you can become. And drag, as a performance art, is work.
Anyways, where did you get this weird idea that only things with a proper ‘barrier to entry’ (which, historically, has been expensive schooling that denies minorities proper access, btw—see what’s going on with PoC and trying to work exclusively with braiding textured hair, for example) is the only way to judge quality or worth? Why can’t art especially be judged on its own merits?
…And, um, did I read that right? You don’t like it when people empathize with others? Or are kind to others?