All of the US political establishment is strongly pro Israel. I think it’s fair to say they have gotten a lot of blood in their hands in the process.
Even so, before the October 7 attacks, relations between the US and Israel were pretty much at an all-time low. Netanyahu is Trump’s man. Since the attack however, Biden has pretty much given Netanyahu a carte blanche. At least that’s how it appears to the public.
Of course Israel is and always has been problematic in its own right. It is however still important to keep a distinction between Israel and the dangerous extremists that run the country. Netanyahu is closer to Yigal Amir than he is to Yitzhak Rabin, and there are a lot of Israelites who recognize him as the genocidal extremist that he is.
I expect nothing other than support for the state of Israel from an US president. That’s a given at this point. Support for Netanyahu, however, I expect only from his fellow fascists.
It’s fairly obvious that Israel is the problem @aasatru
The Zionist state is a mistake.
For centuries, Muslims, Christians and Jews shared Palestine. Then, the Zionists started arriving. They wanted to be the Master Race of the region. That’s the problem.
As Miko Peled observed, Israel and Palestine are the same place. He writes that Jews and Arabs can live together peacefully. That may be true, but by all appearances, it’s true of probably less than 20% of the population.
Palestine is sacred to more than Judaism and Islam. Ideally, I’d like to see it established as World Heritage. Protected by the world at large and thus needing no armed forces. I can dream, can’t I?
What of the other 80%? Netanyahu advocates a state in Sinai for Palestinians, so let’s make that two states. I think of them as sanatoria. Unarmed and heavily guarded, to protect them from each other and the world from them.
I have to admit I’m beginning to lose faith in a two-state solution. Part of me is beginning to think an international protectorate with only limited self-governance in a single Palestinian-Israeli state would be the only acceptable way out of this mess.
There has been shorter moments of calm, but Palestine has been fought over since pretty much forever. Samson’s fighting the Philistines over it already in the old testament. Nothing got better when the Christians started getting involved with their fucking crusades.
Maybe the only way we’ll manage to put an end to it is by global warming rendering the region uninhabitable. Hopefully a few bedouins will still manage to get by in the desert. They’re hardier than most.
There is no path to lasting peace that includes a Zionist state @aasatru
Zionists like to use ancient history for distractions
but I draw a line at the Ottoman Empire. That was a prolonged period of stability, in which Muslims, Christians and Jews shared Palestine.
Then came the British. The story really begins around the year 1840. Apparently, they were quite miffed that Britain’s Jews weren’t interested in moving to Palestine.
Obviously an international protectorate would be incompatible with a zionist state. It might be more of a no state solution than a one state solution.
A tricky part of zionism might be that, except for the fact that it’s an inherently evil contemporary ideology, a longing for Zion is somewhat inherit in Judaism. If a version of zionism is to be salvaged I think it requires a rethinking of what Zion is - peaceful coexistence during the Ottoman Empire might be as close as one could ever get to its meaning in a religious sense.
As it appears today, zionism is a longing for a pure state of a single people, based on romanticized ideas of a hypothetical past that we know literally nothing about. That’s pretty much exactly the same as any other totalitarian ideology.
I do, however, believe that we have to accept that ancient history matters. Not necessarily because it actually does, but because it creates powerful narratives that are incredibly hard to fight.
@aasatru
I’ve read that Jewish Zionism takes many forms. Among them, that Zion is wherever Jews are.
Complicating that is that Jewish Zionism springs from Christian Zionism. That’s a Protestant reinterpretation of scripture dating from the turn of the 17th century.
Jews didn’t start using the term ‘Zionism’ in relation to themselves until the late 19th century. Herzl adopted (or perhaps developed) the Jewish master race interpretation. Other groups evidently took different paths.
Originally, Palestine wasn’t part of the plan. Locations around the world were considered. Somebody (probably Herzl) realised that they could leverage the historical connection to Palestine. It also plays into the Christian rapture/second coming narrative, which was significant in the British involvement. The image is from the link that I posted earlier. #Palestine #Israel #colonialism #imperialism
That’s incredibly fascinating - I had never heard of Christian Zionism before (though I’m obviously familiar with evangelical Christians in the US and their ideas about a Jewish state). It appears the term Chirstian Zionism first appeared in the mid-20th century, though the idea is older than that:
The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, in place of Christian restorationism, as proponents of the ideology rallied behind Zionists in support of a Jewish national homeland.
Advocacy on the part of Christians for a Jewish restoration grew after the Protestant Reformation, and is rooted in 17th-century English Puritanism. Contemporary Israeli historian Anita Shapira suggests that England’s Zionist Evangelical Protestants “passed this notion on to Jewish circles” around the 1840s, while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was largely met with hostility from British Jews. (Wikipedia)
I like the idea that Zion i wherever Jews live/are at home. As far as I’m concerned, fighting anti-semitism and fighting Israel’s version of Zionism is two sides of the same battle.
It’s a tangled web @aasatru
The roots run deep. 🤔 To mix metaphors.
I haven’t actually read Herzl, but he reportedly wasn’t at all religious. He exploited what suited his ends. Part of his solution was that Jews would convert to Christianity. That’s probably his exploitation of the Christian mythology.
Herzl recognised that Palestine is too small to hold all of the world’s Jews. The ones that wouldn’t fit, he saw as dying out. His solution for the existing population of Palestine was evidently similarly brutal (in practice, if not in expressed theory).
All of the US political establishment is strongly pro Israel. I think it’s fair to say they have gotten a lot of blood in their hands in the process.
Even so, before the October 7 attacks, relations between the US and Israel were pretty much at an all-time low. Netanyahu is Trump’s man. Since the attack however, Biden has pretty much given Netanyahu a carte blanche. At least that’s how it appears to the public.
Of course Israel is and always has been problematic in its own right. It is however still important to keep a distinction between Israel and the dangerous extremists that run the country. Netanyahu is closer to Yigal Amir than he is to Yitzhak Rabin, and there are a lot of Israelites who recognize him as the genocidal extremist that he is.
I expect nothing other than support for the state of Israel from an US president. That’s a given at this point. Support for Netanyahu, however, I expect only from his fellow fascists.
It’s fairly obvious that Israel is the problem @aasatru
The Zionist state is a mistake.
For centuries, Muslims, Christians and Jews shared Palestine. Then, the Zionists started arriving. They wanted to be the Master Race of the region. That’s the problem.
As Miko Peled observed, Israel and Palestine are the same place. He writes that Jews and Arabs can live together peacefully. That may be true, but by all appearances, it’s true of probably less than 20% of the population.
Palestine is sacred to more than Judaism and Islam. Ideally, I’d like to see it established as World Heritage. Protected by the world at large and thus needing no armed forces. I can dream, can’t I?
What of the other 80%? Netanyahu advocates a state in Sinai for Palestinians, so let’s make that two states. I think of them as sanatoria. Unarmed and heavily guarded, to protect them from each other and the world from them.
Plus a couple of very large prisons.
#Palestine
#Israel
#USpol
I have to admit I’m beginning to lose faith in a two-state solution. Part of me is beginning to think an international protectorate with only limited self-governance in a single Palestinian-Israeli state would be the only acceptable way out of this mess.
There has been shorter moments of calm, but Palestine has been fought over since pretty much forever. Samson’s fighting the Philistines over it already in the old testament. Nothing got better when the Christians started getting involved with their fucking crusades.
Maybe the only way we’ll manage to put an end to it is by global warming rendering the region uninhabitable. Hopefully a few bedouins will still manage to get by in the desert. They’re hardier than most.
There is no path to lasting peace that includes a Zionist state @aasatru
Zionists like to use ancient history for distractions
but I draw a line at the Ottoman Empire. That was a prolonged period of stability, in which Muslims, Christians and Jews shared Palestine.
Then came the British. The story really begins around the year 1840. Apparently, they were quite miffed that Britain’s Jews weren’t interested in moving to Palestine.
This is long, but worth a read. It reveals some interesting history.
https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/the-destruction-of-palestine-is-the-destruction-of-the-earth
#Palestine
#Israel
#colonialism
#impirialism
Obviously an international protectorate would be incompatible with a zionist state. It might be more of a no state solution than a one state solution.
A tricky part of zionism might be that, except for the fact that it’s an inherently evil contemporary ideology, a longing for Zion is somewhat inherit in Judaism. If a version of zionism is to be salvaged I think it requires a rethinking of what Zion is - peaceful coexistence during the Ottoman Empire might be as close as one could ever get to its meaning in a religious sense.
As it appears today, zionism is a longing for a pure state of a single people, based on romanticized ideas of a hypothetical past that we know literally nothing about. That’s pretty much exactly the same as any other totalitarian ideology.
I do, however, believe that we have to accept that ancient history matters. Not necessarily because it actually does, but because it creates powerful narratives that are incredibly hard to fight.
@aasatru
I’ve read that Jewish Zionism takes many forms. Among them, that Zion is wherever Jews are.
Complicating that is that Jewish Zionism springs from Christian Zionism. That’s a Protestant reinterpretation of scripture dating from the turn of the 17th century.
Jews didn’t start using the term ‘Zionism’ in relation to themselves until the late 19th century. Herzl adopted (or perhaps developed) the Jewish master race interpretation. Other groups evidently took different paths.
Originally, Palestine wasn’t part of the plan. Locations around the world were considered. Somebody (probably Herzl) realised that they could leverage the historical connection to Palestine. It also plays into the Christian rapture/second coming narrative, which was significant in the British involvement. The image is from the link that I posted earlier.
#Palestine
#Israel
#colonialism
#imperialism
That’s incredibly fascinating - I had never heard of Christian Zionism before (though I’m obviously familiar with evangelical Christians in the US and their ideas about a Jewish state). It appears the term Chirstian Zionism first appeared in the mid-20th century, though the idea is older than that:
I like the idea that Zion i wherever Jews live/are at home. As far as I’m concerned, fighting anti-semitism and fighting Israel’s version of Zionism is two sides of the same battle.
It’s a tangled web @aasatru
The roots run deep. 🤔 To mix metaphors.
I haven’t actually read Herzl, but he reportedly wasn’t at all religious. He exploited what suited his ends. Part of his solution was that Jews would convert to Christianity. That’s probably his exploitation of the Christian mythology.
Herzl recognised that Palestine is too small to hold all of the world’s Jews. The ones that wouldn’t fit, he saw as dying out. His solution for the existing population of Palestine was evidently similarly brutal (in practice, if not in expressed theory).
Israeli Zionism is running true to form.
#Palestine
#Israel
#colonialism
#zionism