The man was racist in a manner not uncommon to his time, but hardly to the degree claimed - that slavery was a natural consequence of a mixed nation.
I agree with you that his views evolved over time, but your assertion that he did not at one point live up to the degree of racism that I claimed doesn’t mesh very well with this quote from his debate with Stephen Douglas in 1858:
I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
At his White House meeting with black thought leaders in 1862, he said:
Your race suffer from living among us, while ours suffer from your presence… It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated
This certainly indicates that he still saw an inequality and animosity between black and white people. And while he did eventually come to agree with those who vehemently opposed resettlement of black people, it was really only after the spectacular failure of Île à Vache (a colony off the coast of Haiti) in 1863-64 that he abandoned his original position.
Ok, but I never said that he was in favor of slavery. That’s a completely separate thing from the thing I said. I said that he thought that slavery was a natural consequence of black people and white people living together. The quote I just pointed you to says precisely that. Specifically, this part of the quote:
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
He’s saying that there necessarily exists conditions for servitude in a mixed-race country, and that he wants white people to maintain their dominant position. This isn’t to say that he thinks slavery is good, just that it’s inevitable.
I honestly don’t understand what your argument is anymore. You originally took issue with my assertion that he thought slavery was inevitable, and I provided direct proof showing that was the case. What are you still arguing about?
Ok, but I never said that he was in favor of slavery. That’s a completely separate thing from the thing I said. I said that he thought that slavery was a natural consequence of black people and white people living together. The quote I just pointed you to says precisely that. Specifically, this part of the quote:
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
It literally doesn’t say anything about slavery. You… you DO realize that postwar racial relations were still largely built on a foundation of superior and inferior without slavery, right? Like, “I’m a racist who believes that one race must dominate a society when two mix” still does not equate to “… and that form of domination is naturally slavery”
I honestly don’t understand what your argument is anymore. You originally took issue with my assertion that he thought slavery was inevitable, and I provided direct proof showing that was the case. What are you still arguing about?
Pretty clearly I’m arguing that you don’t understand the quote you yourself provided.
Ok, that makes sense. I don’t agree that you were clearly arguing that until this moment; I was, in fact, very confused as to what you were saying. But perhaps you’re right that I’m misinterpreting the quote. I would argue, however, that social dominance and slavery are not too distant from each other. A big part of the justification that slavers used to salve their consciences was that blacks were naturally inferior to whites, therefore it was only natural that this state of affairs would end in slavery. Lincoln’s aping of that logic in an era where a significant number of people used it to justify slavery might not, as you suggest, mean that he thought slavery was inevitable (as the slavers did). But it certainly muddies the waters.
I will concede this point, however; because it’s not possible to get into his head at the moment he said those words and see precisely what he meant by them, the issue is muddy enough that he could have meant simply that there would necessarily be first and second class citizens in a mixed country, and not that this condition would necessarily lead to slavery. That being said, it doesn’t detract much from the rest of my point, which was, as KevonLooney said, that the union was not at the outset particularly interested in outlawing slavery.
Edit: also, this quote was pre-war, not post-war. He said it in 1858.
Edit: also, this quote was pre-war, not post-war. He said it in 1858.
My point in pointing out postwar relations was not to assert that 1858 was postwar, but to present a time when slavery was very much abolished and public opinion was very much against slavery, yet a racist hierarchy still existed - ie presenting what Lincoln said in '58 as wholly compatible with an anti-slavery stance, even if not one we would find laudable by modern standards.
I agree with you that his views evolved over time, but your assertion that he did not at one point live up to the degree of racism that I claimed doesn’t mesh very well with this quote from his debate with Stephen Douglas in 1858:
At his White House meeting with black thought leaders in 1862, he said:
This certainly indicates that he still saw an inequality and animosity between black and white people. And while he did eventually come to agree with those who vehemently opposed resettlement of black people, it was really only after the spectacular failure of Île à Vache (a colony off the coast of Haiti) in 1863-64 that he abandoned his original position.
Which, on its own, is still very far from saying slavery was a natural consequence.
But… It wasn’t on its own. Did you not see the quote directly above it??
Yes, I saw it, that still doesn’t saw he’s in favor of slavery.
Ok, but I never said that he was in favor of slavery. That’s a completely separate thing from the thing I said. I said that he thought that slavery was a natural consequence of black people and white people living together. The quote I just pointed you to says precisely that. Specifically, this part of the quote:
He’s saying that there necessarily exists conditions for servitude in a mixed-race country, and that he wants white people to maintain their dominant position. This isn’t to say that he thinks slavery is good, just that it’s inevitable.
I honestly don’t understand what your argument is anymore. You originally took issue with my assertion that he thought slavery was inevitable, and I provided direct proof showing that was the case. What are you still arguing about?
It literally doesn’t say anything about slavery. You… you DO realize that postwar racial relations were still largely built on a foundation of superior and inferior without slavery, right? Like, “I’m a racist who believes that one race must dominate a society when two mix” still does not equate to “… and that form of domination is naturally slavery”
Pretty clearly I’m arguing that you don’t understand the quote you yourself provided.
Ok, that makes sense. I don’t agree that you were clearly arguing that until this moment; I was, in fact, very confused as to what you were saying. But perhaps you’re right that I’m misinterpreting the quote. I would argue, however, that social dominance and slavery are not too distant from each other. A big part of the justification that slavers used to salve their consciences was that blacks were naturally inferior to whites, therefore it was only natural that this state of affairs would end in slavery. Lincoln’s aping of that logic in an era where a significant number of people used it to justify slavery might not, as you suggest, mean that he thought slavery was inevitable (as the slavers did). But it certainly muddies the waters.
I will concede this point, however; because it’s not possible to get into his head at the moment he said those words and see precisely what he meant by them, the issue is muddy enough that he could have meant simply that there would necessarily be first and second class citizens in a mixed country, and not that this condition would necessarily lead to slavery. That being said, it doesn’t detract much from the rest of my point, which was, as KevonLooney said, that the union was not at the outset particularly interested in outlawing slavery.
Edit: also, this quote was pre-war, not post-war. He said it in 1858.
My point in pointing out postwar relations was not to assert that 1858 was postwar, but to present a time when slavery was very much abolished and public opinion was very much against slavery, yet a racist hierarchy still existed - ie presenting what Lincoln said in '58 as wholly compatible with an anti-slavery stance, even if not one we would find laudable by modern standards.
Fair enough.