I’m also a younger millennial, but I think this is just somewhat attributed to having enough bad experiences with PVP games, and that’s fine.
The fact you are playing against other sentient, strategizing, sometimes malicious, but sometimes naively innocent, unpredictable, biological machines is just something you can’t really find in single player games.
There’s all kinds of pitfalls where you either take things too seriously, too personally, or just meet a ton of assholes in too short a time. It’s a bit like life itself. It’s got the highest highs, and the lowest lows.
Single player games are simply a lot more consistent in avoiding the lows, but at the cost of never being able to reach those highest highs of knowing you did so well against actual human beings, opponents you can consider your peer or even smarter than you. No single player AI opponent can match that. They usually never play by the same rules as you do, or lack the same weaknesses you do.
But since we remember the lows much more vividly, everyone remembers PVP games as being miserable. Yet we keep playing, because deep down we’re hoping to get that high again. I think it’s fine to let people enjoy that. But it might not be for everyone.
Some people don’t get highs from beating other people.
…
Campaign style playing with others isn’t AS bad, though.
That’s fine, I can understand that. And it definitely helps to play with people you trust. I’m just saying you take a bigger risk with random people, and sometimes you find something unique you wouldn’t otherwise find.
PVP sucks. There are always people willing to spend more money than I am on a game.
PVP games aren’t inherently pay to win. I share your dislike if it comes to that. It must be an even playing field to be enjoyable.
Ironically I’ve mostly stopped playing PvP games because matchmaking, at least for me, has turned PvP into single player with very sophisticated bots and a random outcome. Really think about it, hypothetically if someone made an AI model where the input data is players playing the game and then used that model to direct bots in your match without your knowledge could you even tell the difference? I grew up with community servers and as someone coming from that era the matchmaking process feels like it is missing human connection. You’re not going to make friends there and half the players will treat you inhumanely anyway because it’s not like they’re going to see you again.
Since matchmaking is me getting matched with X random people who I’m never going to see again I might as well be playing against the computer and if I’m already going to do that I might as well get a more curated experience.
I hate matchmaking so much!!! Its such a garbage mechanic. Let me pick a server to play against/with the same dozen people over and over. Some of the best impromptu friendships I’ve ever had were from server based PvP, because I could encounter the same people over and over.
It depends for me. Matchmaking is specifically employed to avoid the situation of one sided matches. That is, one player being completely unable to compete in any way because of difference i experience. Similarly, being the one doing the stomping can be more enjoyable, but not forever. Eventually it feels like playing against AI opponents, and you can’t really develop high level strategies if you always have to keep in mind your opponent might be totally oblivious to anything you do. Typically you do want some grouping with at least similar skill level, so that you can go all without feeling bad or feeling held back. Perhaps some modern matchmaking is too strict, that’s something to look at case to case.
I think an AI could replace the gameplay aspect of human players to a certain degree. But you’re hitting the nail on it’s head. The human factor would be lost. Human players do things that don’t make sense at times, or to achieve an overhanging purpose that no AI could be taught. Most AI implementations (even if we’re not talking about machine learning) are very static. Once you figure out a trick to confuse the AI, like hiding behind a specific wall to ambush them, it’s not going to learn you can do that until a developer updates it. A human player would notice, and eventually would start expecting you to do it and fight against it. Within the same match. I’d argue it’s currently impossible for AI to match that level of ingenuity, at least currently.
Personally, I’ve met some of the nicest people I know in PVP games. Has modern matchmaking made that harder? Probably. But not impossible. I also prefer community servers. But those games still exist out there. They’re just much more niche, because it takes a specific kind of person to go for that. And it requires a level of discomfort of the player, as the steps to learn the ropes becomes much harder. Sadly, few people willingly take that route.
I don’t mind PVP games when I know the folks I’m playing against. I used to have a job where we’d play Unreal Tournament during lunch on the company LAN, and I loved it even though I wasn’t that good. I’d bring my computer to LAN parties in high school, and played Descent over a modem with my friend before that.
Totally agree. I loved playing LAN tournaments back in the day. Having good opponents definitely makes the experience a lot more likable since you can just avoid many of the frustrating situations with horrible people. Every good winner needs a good loser for things to remain friendly. But sadly as I’m sure you noticed as well, as you grow up less and less times will you have a full group of the people you like to play with ready to play at the same time.
That’s the problem that matchmaking in part solves. And sometimes randoms can do things that you would never see a friend of yours do. I still think you have a wider range of experiences with random people, but it does require taking a bigger risk. But I understand that’s not for everyone.
It’s why people are different right. I try to also hold on to the positive memories more than the negative. But some people get called slurs for too many games in a row or don’t get any chance to participate, and get turned off forever. That’s a normal reaction I feel. I like to think if you keep liking PVP games for long enough you have an easier time shrugging off stupid people you play against. It’s what you need to keep going. Or just find that one game with only wholesome people in it, although those are dimes a dozen.
I’m also a younger millennial, but I think this is just somewhat attributed to having enough bad experiences with PVP games, and that’s fine.
The fact you are playing against other sentient, strategizing, sometimes malicious, but sometimes naively innocent, unpredictable, biological machines is just something you can’t really find in single player games.
There’s all kinds of pitfalls where you either take things too seriously, too personally, or just meet a ton of assholes in too short a time. It’s a bit like life itself. It’s got the highest highs, and the lowest lows.
Single player games are simply a lot more consistent in avoiding the lows, but at the cost of never being able to reach those highest highs of knowing you did so well against actual human beings, opponents you can consider your peer or even smarter than you. No single player AI opponent can match that. They usually never play by the same rules as you do, or lack the same weaknesses you do.
But since we remember the lows much more vividly, everyone remembers PVP games as being miserable. Yet we keep playing, because deep down we’re hoping to get that high again. I think it’s fine to let people enjoy that. But it might not be for everyone.
Some people don’t get highs from beating other people.
PVP sucks. There are always people willing to spend more money than I am on a game.
Campaign style playing with others isn’t AS bad, though.
Pay to win models are shit. Much prefer twitch/skill based models where you can’t apply currency to anything mechanical.
That’s fine, I can understand that. And it definitely helps to play with people you trust. I’m just saying you take a bigger risk with random people, and sometimes you find something unique you wouldn’t otherwise find.
PVP games aren’t inherently pay to win. I share your dislike if it comes to that. It must be an even playing field to be enjoyable.
Ironically I’ve mostly stopped playing PvP games because matchmaking, at least for me, has turned PvP into single player with very sophisticated bots and a random outcome. Really think about it, hypothetically if someone made an AI model where the input data is players playing the game and then used that model to direct bots in your match without your knowledge could you even tell the difference? I grew up with community servers and as someone coming from that era the matchmaking process feels like it is missing human connection. You’re not going to make friends there and half the players will treat you inhumanely anyway because it’s not like they’re going to see you again.
Since matchmaking is me getting matched with X random people who I’m never going to see again I might as well be playing against the computer and if I’m already going to do that I might as well get a more curated experience.
I hate matchmaking so much!!! Its such a garbage mechanic. Let me pick a server to play against/with the same dozen people over and over. Some of the best impromptu friendships I’ve ever had were from server based PvP, because I could encounter the same people over and over.
It depends for me. Matchmaking is specifically employed to avoid the situation of one sided matches. That is, one player being completely unable to compete in any way because of difference i experience. Similarly, being the one doing the stomping can be more enjoyable, but not forever. Eventually it feels like playing against AI opponents, and you can’t really develop high level strategies if you always have to keep in mind your opponent might be totally oblivious to anything you do. Typically you do want some grouping with at least similar skill level, so that you can go all without feeling bad or feeling held back. Perhaps some modern matchmaking is too strict, that’s something to look at case to case.
I think an AI could replace the gameplay aspect of human players to a certain degree. But you’re hitting the nail on it’s head. The human factor would be lost. Human players do things that don’t make sense at times, or to achieve an overhanging purpose that no AI could be taught. Most AI implementations (even if we’re not talking about machine learning) are very static. Once you figure out a trick to confuse the AI, like hiding behind a specific wall to ambush them, it’s not going to learn you can do that until a developer updates it. A human player would notice, and eventually would start expecting you to do it and fight against it. Within the same match. I’d argue it’s currently impossible for AI to match that level of ingenuity, at least currently.
Personally, I’ve met some of the nicest people I know in PVP games. Has modern matchmaking made that harder? Probably. But not impossible. I also prefer community servers. But those games still exist out there. They’re just much more niche, because it takes a specific kind of person to go for that. And it requires a level of discomfort of the player, as the steps to learn the ropes becomes much harder. Sadly, few people willingly take that route.
I don’t mind PVP games when I know the folks I’m playing against. I used to have a job where we’d play Unreal Tournament during lunch on the company LAN, and I loved it even though I wasn’t that good. I’d bring my computer to LAN parties in high school, and played Descent over a modem with my friend before that.
But when it’s some rando it’s not nearly as fun.
Totally agree. I loved playing LAN tournaments back in the day. Having good opponents definitely makes the experience a lot more likable since you can just avoid many of the frustrating situations with horrible people. Every good winner needs a good loser for things to remain friendly. But sadly as I’m sure you noticed as well, as you grow up less and less times will you have a full group of the people you like to play with ready to play at the same time.
That’s the problem that matchmaking in part solves. And sometimes randoms can do things that you would never see a friend of yours do. I still think you have a wider range of experiences with random people, but it does require taking a bigger risk. But I understand that’s not for everyone.
I must be good at compartmentalizing because the moments I vividly remember from PVP are the hard-fought wins, both 1v1 and as a group.
It’s why people are different right. I try to also hold on to the positive memories more than the negative. But some people get called slurs for too many games in a row or don’t get any chance to participate, and get turned off forever. That’s a normal reaction I feel. I like to think if you keep liking PVP games for long enough you have an easier time shrugging off stupid people you play against. It’s what you need to keep going. Or just find that one game with only wholesome people in it, although those are dimes a dozen.