Prepared to be roasted alive for this opinion but studies (undoubtedly of white, middle class, US undergrads) seem to indicate women find clutter and messes more psychologically distressing than men do.
I’m a man but I’ve had many deadbeat guys as roommates and I am definitely far more bothered by messes and clutter than they were so I kind of get this.
If you are the “mind it more” person, you will find yourself rage cleaning because the other person can wait you out as long as they want if they are taking you for granted and not concerned you’ll leave over this.
So there are two toxic traits here:
A willingness to wait out chores even if you know it’s angering people you are with.
A kind of willful blindness. “Honestly, I didn’t think it was that bad.”
The second one might be worse.
The first is excusable (plausible deniability) with the “men are oblivious” defense if the aggrieved party is not being overt in their request that a chore be done.
The second is a person (some women obviously do this, too) refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person. From an interpersonal perspective this is probably more infuriating over the years.
I think you have a point, and it is indeed something different - if two people live together and simply have different preferences or care about different things, it’ll of course lead to some friction.
I think this goes both ways in most relationships. I keep bothering my girlfriend about the bathroom sink and the office desk we share; she complains about me keeping half dirty (half clean) clothes in a pile in the bedroom. That’s not what it’s about, though I think it can get easily confused.
It’s more about the “I don’t know how to use the washing machine/book bus tickets/change bags in the vacuum cleaner/cook a pie/change bedsheets/clean the toilet/make a vinegrette/change diapers/whatever”, where instead of an emphasis on learning the skill it’s only left to the other person.
It’s not all men, but it is common. I think it’s a systematic issue that men don’t carry the full responsibility for. They’re raised by mothers who do everything for them, and while their sisters are taught how to take care of themselves they are simply left to “be boys”. And then they go out in the world and find a woman who can effectively replace their mothers.
It’s the kind of guys who move away from home but keep going back to their mothers whenever they need laundry done.
I think the first trait is worse than the second. Waiting to do a chore knowing (1) it needs to be done, and (2) the other person will do it if you hold out long enough is such a jerk move. Although the second isn’t awesome either. I think it is safe to say, don’t do either of these things.
The second is a person TWO PEOPLE refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person.
ftfy. I’m sick of society always thinking that men have to learn how to be cleaner. Maybe women should learn how to not freak out over a little mess sometimes.
The onus should not be 100% on men to change. It should be a compromise, and part of it is women learning to relax and undo the ingrained “everything must look perfect” toxic baggage that they have, just as much as men need to learn not to live in a pigsty just because mom isn’t around to clean up after you.
Prepared to be roasted alive for this opinion but studies (undoubtedly of white, middle class, US undergrads) seem to indicate women find clutter and messes more psychologically distressing than men do.
I’m a man but I’ve had many deadbeat guys as roommates and I am definitely far more bothered by messes and clutter than they were so I kind of get this.
If you are the “mind it more” person, you will find yourself rage cleaning because the other person can wait you out as long as they want if they are taking you for granted and not concerned you’ll leave over this.
So there are two toxic traits here:
A willingness to wait out chores even if you know it’s angering people you are with.
A kind of willful blindness. “Honestly, I didn’t think it was that bad.”
The second one might be worse.
The first is excusable (plausible deniability) with the “men are oblivious” defense if the aggrieved party is not being overt in their request that a chore be done.
The second is a person (some women obviously do this, too) refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person. From an interpersonal perspective this is probably more infuriating over the years.
I think you have a point, and it is indeed something different - if two people live together and simply have different preferences or care about different things, it’ll of course lead to some friction.
I think this goes both ways in most relationships. I keep bothering my girlfriend about the bathroom sink and the office desk we share; she complains about me keeping half dirty (half clean) clothes in a pile in the bedroom. That’s not what it’s about, though I think it can get easily confused.
It’s more about the “I don’t know how to use the washing machine/book bus tickets/change bags in the vacuum cleaner/cook a pie/change bedsheets/clean the toilet/make a vinegrette/change diapers/whatever”, where instead of an emphasis on learning the skill it’s only left to the other person.
It’s not all men, but it is common. I think it’s a systematic issue that men don’t carry the full responsibility for. They’re raised by mothers who do everything for them, and while their sisters are taught how to take care of themselves they are simply left to “be boys”. And then they go out in the world and find a woman who can effectively replace their mothers.
It’s the kind of guys who move away from home but keep going back to their mothers whenever they need laundry done.
I think the first trait is worse than the second. Waiting to do a chore knowing (1) it needs to be done, and (2) the other person will do it if you hold out long enough is such a jerk move. Although the second isn’t awesome either. I think it is safe to say, don’t do either of these things.
ftfy. I’m sick of society always thinking that men have to learn how to be cleaner. Maybe women should learn how to not freak out over a little mess sometimes.
The onus should not be 100% on men to change. It should be a compromise, and part of it is women learning to relax and undo the ingrained “everything must look perfect” toxic baggage that they have, just as much as men need to learn not to live in a pigsty just because mom isn’t around to clean up after you.